Languages USyd vs. UNSW vs..Macq? (1 Viewer)

[nandayo]

Just wondering if there are any Arts students ( Language Majors) who study at either UNSW or USyd. Preferably both, so you could answer my question: Which university is 'better' in terms of language departments/lecturers/facilities.

If anyone could point me in the right direction, it'd be really appreciated.

 

[bustinjustin]

I cannot speak for UNSW or Mac but I'm sure their language departments are perfectly adequate. However, you can be assured that Sydney has the widest range of languages, and is superior in terms of resources...

Sydney's language departments are generally the biggest in the state, possibly nationwide, with those at U.Melb and ANU in close competition. In a way, it does depend on what languages you intend on doing, but for classical languages, it's Sydney all the way (not surprising since we're one of the few unis that still offer them).

In terms of grants, Sydney has the BA (languages) which gives you $5000 towards the cost of an exchange. There is another scheme where, with an Arts degree and a credit average, the Faculty will cover the cost of your airfare and transportation costs on an exchange. Similar schemes are in place at the other unis offering similar amounts, but fewer grants may be offered.

That said, beware of cost-cutting and its effect on language departments - at Sydney Uni alone, beginners and intermediate streams are being packed into common lectures (French for example), while Thai and, er, Pali have been axed. Similar cutbacks are most probably being made at the other unis as well.

Nevertheless, if you intend to focus on languages at uni, Sydney should be your main aim.

 

[xeuyrawp]

I cannot speak for UNSW or Mac but I'm sure their language departments are perfectly adequate. However, you can be assured that Sydney has the widest range of languages.

You can be 'assured' of nothing outside of what you know as fact.

No offense, but you should probably do some research into empirical data rather than just assuming your univeristy is better than others. Otherwise, you just look like a misinformed snob. *shrugs*

Number of modern languages officially offered at NSW univeristies for a major:

Macquarie: 12, (here),
Sydney: 12, (here),
UNSW: 9, (here),
UTS: 7, (here).

but for classical languages, it's Sydney all the way (not surprising since we're one of the few unis that still offer them).

What about a department that actually still has world-wide research, and has 3 Australian Research Centres, versus Sydney's 0?

Really, you just have a better museum, which only prospered under Sowada (a Macquarian). Now look at the shit it's in.

nandayo: These are some things to consider:

- What language/s do you want to do?
- What kind of structure do you want in your degree?
- If you want to do non-language units, what units do you want to do?
- Which uni is the closest to you?

Some of those questions will immediately give you answers, eg if you wanted to do Arabic, you'd need to go to Sydney. If you wanted external study, you might chose Macquarie. If you wanted to do an east-Asian language, ANU might be the best.

Make sure you go to the open days in September and visit the uni's. There's nothing worse than chosing a uni without going there - talk to the staff, see what they have to say about languages. Talking with people that are actually doing the languages is essential. I'm sure you'd find a few people on this website that study languages all around the place!

 

[kami]

UTS: 7, (here).

Not exactly.

UTS has special arrangements in place with all other sydney based universities, so that any modern language offered can be taken in their degree. If your language is not supported at a sydney based university[USYD/UNSW/MQ/UWS], then arrangements can be made for you pursuant to cost. You also have the ability to take double language majors if you request special permission so that you may go to bilingual countries such as Switzerland for the exchange year(which is mandatory in BA in International Studies). Though despite all of this, UTS is somewhat restrictive with this program as the BA in International Studies may only be studied in addition to another degree - which sets you up for 5+ years, something you may not be interested in.

So in the end you can choose to study one
(sometimes two) out of 17 languages in the BA in International Studies at UTS:
Arabic
Chinese
Croatian
French
German
Greek
Hindi/Urdu
Indonesian
Italian
Japanese
Korean
Macedonian
Polish
Russian
Spanish
Ukrainian
Vietnamese

The language offerings aren't really set in stone either - if you have a legitimate interest in a language your university doesn't offer, and enough free electives to support it then some universities will permit you to study that language elsewhere (though not neccesarily to the extent that UTS will). Just from memory, one boser who studied BArtsSci at USYD studied Russian at UNSW.

Another major issue, is that the language degrees at each uni aren't at all similar so its really hard to compare them - it'd be a good idea to do what Pwar says and check out the structures because for example BInt Stu at each university is so incredibly different that you wouldn't even recognise them as the same or even similar degrees.

If you're going for Classical or Slavic languages, I'd probably also reccomend MQ as I've only heard good things about it (and they are one of the few places to even offer them!). MQ also has a pretty good exchange system going if you're interested in that.

The following degrees are what you'd basically be comparing:
MQ

• BA and anything combined with a BA of course.
• BIntStu
• DipLang, basically a Diploma you can add to any degree (at any uni) if you want to study a language.

UNSW

• BA and any combined degree with a BA.
• DipLang, this is basically a Diploma you can add to any UNSW degree if you want to study a language.

USYD

• BA as well as the advanced and combined forms.
• BA in Languages
• BLibStu
• BGlobStu
• DipLang, a Diploma in Languages that you can study that will give you a major in Languages if you study a non arts faculty degree.

UTS

• BA in International Studies (details for the less common languages fall under the Independent Study Major)

UWS

• BA, as well any combined degrees with a BA.
• BA(Interpreting & Translation)

 

[phrred]

UNSW n SYD also have BIntStu

 

[xeuyrawp]

not exactly

Number of modern languages officially offered at NSW univeristies for a major:

UTS doesn't offer the languages, so yes, exactly... But yeah, thanks for those excellent links.

I know for a fact that Macquarie and Sydney also have reciprocal schemes - although I don't know the details. So really, they all have the same amount of languages to chose from. Although I suspect that UTS is more flexible in doing extra-university languages, simply from what I've heard.

A USyd student who does hieroglyphs in the night class said that USyd allowed one full-year study at Macquarie for him, but I don't know the details, what degree he is in and such. Again, you'd need to check with the uni itself.

My point was that one university does not monopolise the system. It's clear that the younger uni's introduce languages that aren't taken anywhere else, eg Macquarie has all the Slavic languages as you point out. I guess they assumed that there is only a small demand - competition and such.

I totally forgot about UWS, but I also think ANU is an awesome uni. I was considering going there for Japanese, and partaking in the year-away program. Considering it's relatively close to Sydney, that's also a uni well worth considering, as is UWS.

 

[kami]

UTS doesn't offer the languages, so yes, exactly...

Ah, my bad. I thought you meant language majors offered in the respective university's degrees.

Also, another one I forgot - ACU and their BA. They have a similar deal to UTS apparently, where you can apply for pretty much any language at any of the other unis with a good deal of flexibility.

 

[bustinjustin]

You can be 'assured' of nothing outside of what you know as fact.

No offense, but you should probably do some research into empirical data rather than just assuming your univeristy is better than others. Otherwise, you just look like a misinformed snob. *shrugs*

Apologies, I'm embarassed, I totally am, guess I wasn't qualified to properly respond to this topic after all - but give me a break, i can't help it - I go to Sydney Uni after all, a neo-liberal institution where presumption can actually be more powerful than empiricism. We get told so much from day one of orientation that we're the best uni in Australia that us kiddies sometimes just... fall for it.

To make up for the deception, and to let Pwar take even more delight in Sydney Uni's shortcomings, here's a bleaker picture of languages at Sydney. In the past year or two, Sydney have culled Thai and Pali, Beginners and Intermediate streams are being force to attened the same lectures and tutorial classes are increasingly overcrowded. However, the school of languages has a really swanky office, swankier than that of the economists - they can't afford to adequately fund their academic programs, but they sure as hell can renovate...

Nevertheless, in Sydney Uni speak - we're still, like, totally the most beautiful uni in Sydney - like, we have sandstone. And if our student newspaper is anything to go by, we'll be mining it too...

But at the end of the day, the moral of the story is that the unis collaborate a lot more than we think they do...

 

[jusdorange]

at Sydney Uni alone, beginners and intermediate streams are being packed into common lectures (French for example)

i'm disappointed to hear this since i want to start social sciences with a major in french next year - i'll be a beginner so i guess it doesn't really affect me in terms of the lecture being too easy, but i was hoping language lectures would be smaller and a bit more like tutes.

 

[bustinjustin]

i'm disappointed to hear this since i want to start social sciences with a major in french next year - i'll be a beginner so i guess it doesn't really affect me in terms of the lecture being too easy, but i was hoping language lectures would be smaller and a bit more like tutes.

Quite the opposute - about 250 - 300 people in the one lecture learning the same basic grammar, but it is still possible to ask a question or two in this environment, if you're quick! Give or take a few, tutes on average have about 20 people, which is alright I suppose but they fill up when people drop down to easier streams. Beginner classes are a hoot from what I've heard, but sometimes the fun is spoiled by the difficulty of the work, especially in Intermediate, and generally, much unlike school, the novelty of learning a language has been taken out of the equation. In lectures we were taught basic grammar usually taught early in high school, but in class, intermediates were expected to translate whole articles, write impromptu scripts and debate about everything from art to economics, all in French. Tutors are also unforgiving when it comes to marking.

Ah well, that's off my chest, but don't despair. Beginners and Intermediates don't have to write essays, the beginners course is hell easy if you've done French before and many people do it just for easy marks, there's no big final exam, and it's easy for first years to do because you're constantly seeing the same group of like-minded people. So keep your plans, persevere more than I did, and you'll be fine.

 

[kami]

Quite the opposute - about 250 - 300 people in the one lecture learning the same basic grammar

Thats weird - UTS and MQ have it in seminars (ie double length tutes). I thought all uni would teach languages like that, do you find the lecture/tute format at all difficult (apart from the mixing of beginners and intermediate) for doing french?

 

[xeuyrawp]

lectures and tutes for language? How does it work?

It's rather difficult, and I suspect that it works only when you're just reading the language. Eg German/French for Academic Purposes and hieroglyphs are totally about being able to translate texts, not being able to communicate in them. I've snuck into a few German for AP classes, and they're totally about grammar, as is hieroglyphs.

That being said, the German for AP and the hieroglyphs lecturers do involve the class (verbal repetition / confirmation / learning and such), it's just not designed for so much of a dialogue, as seminars are.

I could be a loser and say that I think lectures for languages are far more intensive, and hence only for those serious students willing to do a lot of work at home, but I've never had seminars at uni, so I wouldn't know. The German for AP class did seem to lose a lot of students througout the semester, though, so I suspect that people underestimated the work involved.

 

[p.r.i.n.c.e.s.s]

I just finished FRN 226 ( Intermediate French I ) at Macquarie and all i can say is that it's a well-organised and fun unit! I really enjoyed it and the teacher was AWESOME!

There are no lectures at all, two 2-hr so-called "workshops" of 20 students every week where we have class discussions ( topics like Sport, Travel etc but in french) sometimes we'll watch TV and every week work on the grammar/vocabulary.

Tapes/CDs are also available for loans to study at home. And there's a room provided with cable TV for french students. (maybe other lang. studs as well)

All in all, I thought it was very organised, easy to follow, discuss and the convenors are really open/easy to approach. From that, I'd say the french dept at Mac.'s pretty good.

The only thing I have to complain abt was that it was A LOT of hours, almost 4 compulsory hrs p/w and unlike lects, it was hard to skip them coz it was a small class and she knew everyone's names!

 

[bustinjustin]

For languages, it 1 x 1hr lecture + 3 x 1hr tutes. I guess the idea is to learn the grammar in the lecture, and practice applying it through tutes. The resources, the composition of the intermediate stream and the actual tute lessons sound a lot like the seminars Macquarie and UTS have, only we have one hour less at Sydney.

The lecture/tute format shouldnt have been too much of a problem, but the discrepancies between the two were more pronounced with the intermediate course (no pun intended). Do they cover grammar thoroughly in seminar-style teaching (ie. 1 hour on grammar and examples, then another hour of practice?) . In our tutes, grammar was taught somewhat ad-hoc, especially in the first few weeks when we were expected to plunge into script-writing, debates and whole article translations - to a large degree, grammar was meant to be learned indepedently (which I did too little of, and I suffered greatly since I hadn't done French since Year 10). I suppose this is the case with uni in general, but unlike with other subjects, it's hard to ad lib in language classes, and it was very intimidating when others were using conditional and future tenses while I was still getting over the difference between parfait and imparfait...

The problem last semester was that barely anyone from the intermediate stream attended the stupid lecture on Monday mornings last semester because revising basic negation and articles did not help in anyway, yet from the first week we were translating whole articles and using heaps of advanced grammar few, if not anybody had learned . Assessments were easier than the actual class work done, the lecturer even claimed that some assessments were easier than the beginners yet the intermediates still performed worse. This was of course testament to the problems of the intermediate French course (or the laziness of intermediate students...)

A lot of people also dropped down to lower streams, so people that had done Continuers were doing intermediate when they shouldve been doing advanced (and outperforming HSC beginners/Tafe/yr 10 french and technically native-speakers), and people who had previously done french were dropping down to beginners and topping their classes. Out of sheer pride and stubborness, I refused to drop down on the premise that the beginners course wouldn't have advanced my French skills as much - my GPA/WAM has suffered as a result. So to all the genuine beginners out there of any language at uni - beware of the imposters who make you feel like shit when you're finding it more difficult to grasp new grammar or vocab, when they've secretly done it all before (alternatively, you can befriend them/use them for personal gain, but you'll feel guilty as hell, like this one girl who dropped down to beginners because she didn't want to spend the whole semester 'using' a friend of ours for answers!)

Keep in mind that that a few factors are affecting my ability to provide an honest assessment of Sydney Uni French and what I say may not truly reflect it's supposed greatness , despite there being no final exam, the French Department have yet to post up Semester 1 results (like the rest of the Arts Faculty, they've yet to grasp the advances of technology), and I am expecting a bare pass at best (it was hard to get working once the semester got rolling, and I couldn't stop comparing my high school experience of learning French, which was oh so slow but so much more enjoyable).