Law and Morality: Is there a necessary connection? (1 Viewer)

Crobat

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Hey everyone :)

So I was in the middle of writing an "essay" for one of my foundies to Law and the question is regarding whether there is a necessary connection between the law and morality. I think this is an interesting question but the structure of the assignment is retarded and really limits your ability to actually go into discussion so I thought I'd take it here.

What do you guys think? Is there a connection? Is that connection necessary?

I'm arguing that the law is not obliged to connect with morality at all; it's an autonomous institution separate from morality and religion, etc. Although that is not to say it won't overlap with morality, because after all, law is shaped by social forces, one of the more prominent being morality. But that being said, as morality is essentially an individual conception of right and wrong, it is impossible for the law to adequately protect every individuals' morality. Therefore, it's quite unreasonable to expect law to connect to morality, but it does its best regardless.

But that's my opinion. What's yours?

I'm looking for a discussion, not a debate, so try and keep the hostilities to a minimum if you disagree with someone :)
 
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Spiritual Being

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I believe there's an inseparable link between morality and the operative law. As you've stated, the issue with accounting for a moral influence on the law is the divided moral conception present amongst society. In this sense, balancing competing moral views is a perpetual goal of the law rather than a prevailing truth. I feel compelled to oversee the concept in reverse; that the law influences societal morality, and in this sense becomes inseparable from morality. With reluctance due to the sensitivity of the issue, the concept of same-sex relationships exemplifies this idea. If the law had an overnight statutory reform, discounting opposing public opinion and decided to legalize same-sex marriage; the institutional authority of the law will dissipate in the public sphere, which will stimulate the presence of an anarchy state. Albeit, it's perhaps too extreme to submit that same-sex marriage will lead to anarchy, but reasonable to put forth the importance of the law being reflective of societal morality to ensure its supreme and institutional operation. The law has instead espoused a progressional recognition, which supports the moral transformation of society. By methodically aligning the rights of same-sex couples with that of heterosexual couples, the law allows a statutory progression of recognition, which influences the growing societal acceptance of same-sex relationships as a moral and therefore acceptable ideology.

If the law advocates the morality of murder, it will lead to the moralization of a previously immoral concept amongst individuals within that governing state. Due to influencing the newfound societal morality, the law will henceforth be reflective of individual morality; whether wholly representative of society or not, it will still reflect morality held within a portion of the population. Hypothetically, if someone is discussing a certain issue, we instinctively question its legality, "is it legal?". Perhaps that is to refrain from partaking in a certain activity to avoid punishment, but is it something deeper than that? Is it because the law puts forth an imposition of morality when it prohibits a certain activity? Do we therefore align ourselves with the law, because it's such a supreme and governing authority, that it must systematically advocate morality? Ultimately, through its operation, the law can validate the paradigm of being reflective of 'morality', without necessarily conforming to previous moral standards - as it transitions societies immorality to morality, and vice versa.
 

bhsrepresent

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IMO in order to answer this question one has to determine their philosophical interpretation of ethics in terms of either:

(a) Believing in absolute and objective ethical principles
(b) Taking a morally relative stance wherein moral principles are subject to culture or prevailing social/ individual beliefs

In the case of (a), where ethics is deemed objectively definable, the law could either reflect or completely fail to reflect morality in an absolute sense. I.e. if murder is deemed objectively immoral, depending on how the law views murder, legislation is either in line with, or completely against, respective ethical principles.

In the case of (b), where morality is subjectively determined, it is impossible to actually determine a connection between morality and law considering that in this case, ethics is a relative construct that reflects personal or social desire rather than objective truth.

So I guess it depends how you view and approach ethics. If ethics is objective, a connection or disconnection between the law and morality can be logically determined. On the contrary, if ethics is viewed as subjective, the link between morality and law depends on the individual making the link and thus cannot be determined in a philosophically consistent sense.

EDIT: Ironically this entire process of interpreting ethics as objective or subjective is subjective in itself (Nonetheless IMO, this doesn't mean ethics can't be objective)
 
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bhsrepresent

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Its also interesting to note that moral paradoxes can exist within a legal system. (Relating to your question, these would ultimately question the connection between morality and the law)

For instance, take laws that protect private property - they are founded on ethical ideas related to personal liberty and economic freedom. HOWEVER, the law is itself ethically inconsistent in the sense that other legislation is coercive and dissimilar with these philosophic convictions. I.e. laws that increase the power of the police are philosophically contrary to laws based around freedom, instead founded on different ethical principles where for example, the state has a moral duty to 'protect' communities by increasing its power.

To relate this to your essay, if laws morally conflict within a legal system, the law is merely a comprised collective institution that does not reflect broader ethical consistency. Any paradoxical laws within the same system thus serve as an argument against the link between morality and the law.
 
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wannaspoon

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do your own homework!!! :lol:

sneaky, sneaky!!!
 

scuba_steve2121

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The OP's post is pretty much correct. Most laws are not there in the interest of keeping social order, but rather to further the self-interests of the state and other special interest groups.
 

wannaspoon

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I'm arguing that the law is not obliged to connect with morality at all; it's an autonomous institution separate from morality and religion, etc. Although that is not to say it won't overlap with morality, because after all, law is shaped by social forces, one of the more prominent being morality. But that being said, as morality is essentially an individual conception of right and wrong, it is impossible for the law to adequately protect every individuals' morality. Therefore, it's quite unreasonable to expect law to connect to morality, but it does its best regardless.
I've had an assignment similar to this... however, it was more centred on whether natural law (which are laws created on the basis of morals) is outdated...

not going to tell you what I wrote but it involved HLA Hart's Minimal Content of Natural law and a run down of many other theorists.. It also went into current events which are being swayed by moral objections from faculties like religion... things like, stem cell research... I then went on to say that natural law is still prevalent...

the impression I'm getting is that you're attempting to convey a legal positivists view... the view being, morality is a separate being from law... Probably good to do a bit of reading on the issue and search up a few legal positivist approaches to your problem...

truth of the matter is, no matter which theory you use, you are always going to run into problems...
 

JohnMaximus

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Wasn't the western legal system founded on Old Testament values?

Origin of national law seems relevant.
 

Crobat

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I believe there's an inseparable link between morality and the operative law. As you've stated, the issue with accounting for a moral influence on the law is the divided moral conception present amongst society. In this sense, balancing competing moral views is a perpetual goal of the law rather than a prevailing truth. I feel compelled to oversee the concept in reverse; that the law influences societal morality, and in this sense becomes inseparable from morality. With reluctance due to the sensitivity of the issue, the concept of same-sex relationships exemplifies this idea. If the law had an overnight statutory reform, discounting opposing public opinion and decided to legalize same-sex marriage; the institutional authority of the law will dissipate in the public sphere, which will stimulate the presence of an anarchy state. Albeit, it's perhaps too extreme to submit that same-sex marriage will lead to anarchy, but reasonable to put forth the importance of the law being reflective of societal morality to ensure its supreme and institutional operation. The law has instead espoused a progressional recognition, which supports the moral transformation of society. By methodically aligning the rights of same-sex couples with that of heterosexual couples, the law allows a statutory progression of recognition, which influences the growing societal acceptance of same-sex relationships as a moral and therefore acceptable ideology.

If the law advocates the morality of murder, it will lead to the moralization of a previously immoral concept amongst individuals within that governing state. Due to influencing the newfound societal morality, the law will henceforth be reflective of individual morality; whether wholly representative of society or not, it will still reflect morality held within a portion of the population. Hypothetically, if someone is discussing a certain issue, we instinctively question its legality, "is it legal?". Perhaps that is to refrain from partaking in a certain activity to avoid punishment, but is it something deeper than that? Is it because the law puts forth an imposition of morality when it prohibits a certain activity? Do we therefore align ourselves with the law, because it's such a supreme and governing authority, that it must systematically advocate morality? Ultimately, through its operation, the law can validate the paradigm of being reflective of 'morality', without necessarily conforming to previous moral standards - as it transitions societies immorality to morality, and vice versa.
Interesting viewpoint. In other words you believe because the law acts also as an educator of members of society, it should be morally righteous? We learn that this is called the "centrality of law", where the law acts the primary social ordering model and also serves to educate. It's entirely valid, but I can't help but point out that morals are subjective, and many morals reflected in the Western legal system arose from English Common Law, back when the Bible was a significant influence on the law system. But overtime the law has changed to reflect social forces, not necessarily religiously based. That's why I posit that the law stands to be an autonomous institution, that doesn't necessarily need to connect with morality, but does need to reflect humanity (if that makes sense...). And even though same-sex couples have their rights aligned with those married, it doesn't mean that they are equalised socially. They still technically aren't realised as a couple - remember, de facto relationships has no definition, but a criteria that needs to be ticked off to qualify. What you also bring up is one of my arguments; that of the morality in civil disobedience in certain situations. Long story short, it just means when there is a recognised immoral value in the law, it becomes moral to disobey it, even though it goes against the law and order of society. In that way, like you said, the law is made of morals, but nothing specifically suggesting that there is only one body of morals in the system. There is undoubtedly a connection between law and morality, (and I hope this part makes sense because it's not in my writing so far :haha:) but it's an unnecessary connection because of this individual conception of morality. It serves to educate which means by prohibition it informs what's right and what's wrong, which is, at the end of the day, morality in its raw essence.

This is too hard to argue without sounding like a huge clump on self-contradictions...

shouldn't the law be morally good? bam, connection.
Yeah, but what constitutes morals is difficult to interpret. For example, Lord Devlin argues that societies are held together by a shared morality and thus crimes should constitute punishment if they are against the morals, even in the event that no one is harmed or that the wider society does not know of its occurrence. But HLA Hart counters that the concept of a 'shared morality' is flawed, because in pluralistic and multicultural societies there are inevitably a huge diversity of views on morals, and so a singlular 'shared morality' would be unreasonable to identify. In that way it kind of seems that protecting individuals' rights becomes the important aspect of law, and even though that's morally right, that brings into issue things like homosexual marriage which by all accounts should be legal as it constitutes institutionalised discrimination, but would upset the religious demographic because it would mean to break the traditional idea of matrimony. So does that make it morally correct to inhibit a certain demographic from doing something, because another would be upset by it, even though it wouldn't really adversely affect them at all? The same applies to most contentious issues like abortion.

Too many paradoxes when considering law and morality... my brain actually hurts...

IMO in order to answer this question one has to determine their philosophical interpretation of ethics in terms of either:

(a) Believing in absolute and objective ethical principles
(b) Taking a morally relative stance wherein moral principles are subject to culture or prevailing social/ individual beliefs

In the case of (a), where ethics is deemed objectively definable, the law could either reflect or completely fail to reflect morality in an absolute sense. I.e. if murder is deemed objectively immoral, depending on how the law views murder, legislation is either in line with, or completely against, respective ethical principles.

In the case of (b), where morality is subjectively determined, it is impossible to actually determine a connection between morality and law considering that in this case, ethics is a relative construct that reflects personal or social desire rather than objective truth.

So I guess it depends how you view and approach ethics. If ethics is objective, a connection or disconnection between the law and morality can be logically determined. On the contrary, if ethics is viewed as subjective, the link between morality and law depends on the individual making the link and thus cannot be determined in a philosophically consistent sense.

EDIT: Ironically this entire process of interpreting ethics as objective or subjective is subjective in itself (Nonetheless IMO, this doesn't mean ethics can't be objective)
Yep, this is where the interesting part of the question is though. To my delight the Law faculty has written that there is no right or wrong answer, just well-argued opinions, so if I explain myself properly it shouldn't sound too much like a mess :haha:

I've had an assignment similar to this... however, it was more centred on whether natural law (which are laws created on the basis of morals) is outdated...

not going to tell you what I wrote but it involved HLA Hart's Minimal Content of Natural law and a run down of many other theorists.. It also went into current events which are being swayed by moral objections from faculties like religion... things like, stem cell research... I then went on to say that natural law is still prevalent...

the impression I'm getting is that you're attempting to convey a legal positivists view... the view being, morality is a separate being from law... Probably good to do a bit of reading on the issue and search up a few legal positivist approaches to your problem...

truth of the matter is, no matter which theory you use, you are always going to run into problems...
Yeah, I am taking a legal positivist view, and natural law comes into my counter arguments. I have my readings so I won't look too uninformed, but it's quite a difficult question to word yourself around. The paradoxes hurt...
 
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isildurrrr1

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Wasn't the western legal system founded on Old Testament values?

Origin of national law seems relevant.
Nope.avi

There's Civil and Common law systems which are completely different. Most of western laws are built on roman civic codes and what not, if you go further back Hammurabi code is a major influence in all legal systems.
 

peikoff

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Very interesting topic.

Whilst certainly there is a connection between the moral and the legal, it is by no means necessary for justice.

Consider that all 4 combos of im/moral and il/legal are possible. (Note: I only use examples which can be rationally justified).

Immoral and illegal - rape and murder
Immoral and legal - being rude to your wife after a hard days work
Moral and legal - donating to charity
Moral and illegal - (some particular) 17 year olds voting in an election..

Thus I see no necessary connection between the legal and the moral, in the abstract. That said, I think the connection between some *individual cases* is necessary, thus the illegal/immoral connection for rape is necessary, among others. (Of course, rape could be legal, but again, I'm talking about what can be justified rationally.
 

Sathius005

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Ethics is a system encapsulating geo-political moral values, beliefs and acting in the best interests of the society that sustains us.
 

peikoff

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Ethics is a system encapsulating geo-political moral values, beliefs and acting in the best interests of the society that sustains us.
FYI that is not what ethics is. That is more an attempted statement of the most commonly sought goals of practical politics than a definition of ethics.
 

Sathius005

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"FYI that is not what ethics is. That is more an attempted statement of the most commonly sought goals of practical politics than a definition of ethics."-Peikoff
My understanding is that Ethics, Natural Law and Politics are interlinked.
 

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I believe there's an inseparable link between morality and the operative law. As you've stated, the issue with accounting for a moral influence on the law is the divided moral conception present amongst society. In this sense, balancing competing moral views is a perpetual goal of the law rather than a prevailing truth. I feel compelled to oversee the concept in reverse; that the law influences societal morality, and in this sense becomes inseparable from morality. With reluctance due to the sensitivity of the issue, the concept of same-sex relationships exemplifies this idea. If the law had an overnight statutory reform, discounting opposing public opinion and decided to legalize same-sex marriage; the institutional authority of the law will dissipate in the public sphere, which will stimulate the presence of an anarchy state. Albeit, it's perhaps too extreme to submit that same-sex marriage will lead to anarchy, but reasonable to put forth the importance of the law being reflective of societal morality to ensure its supreme and institutional operation. The law has instead espoused a progressional recognition, which supports the moral transformation of society. By methodically aligning the rights of same-sex couples with that of heterosexual couples, the law allows a statutory progression of recognition, which influences the growing societal acceptance of same-sex relationships as a moral and therefore acceptable ideology.

If the law advocates the morality of murder, it will lead to the moralization of a previously immoral concept amongst individuals within that governing state. Due to influencing the newfound societal morality, the law will henceforth be reflective of individual morality; whether wholly representative of society or not, it will still reflect morality held within a portion of the population. Hypothetically, if someone is discussing a certain issue, we instinctively question its legality, "is it legal?". Perhaps that is to refrain from partaking in a certain activity to avoid punishment, but is it something deeper than that? Is it because the law puts forth an imposition of morality when it prohibits a certain activity? Do we therefore align ourselves with the law, because it's such a supreme and governing authority, that it must systematically advocate morality? Ultimately, through its operation, the law can validate the paradigm of being reflective of 'morality', without necessarily conforming to previous moral standards - as it transitions societies immorality to morality, and vice versa.
jesus christ this is A grade crazy

shine on you crazy diamond
 

kfnmpah

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shouldn't the law be morally good? bam, connection.
bro that is a superficial connection
morals are a human construction
ergo so is "law"
this is evident in differing legal systems across the world and even on a smaller scale in the decisions of different judges/juries etc. who exist within the same social environment

nom sayin'

they may be commensurate but certainly legitimate arguments exist that law isn't exactly robust in terms of considering more complex issues

for example the Heinz dilemma law says: stealing is wrong. some people agree, some people say it is "right" within a certain context.
 

Crobat

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bro that is a superficial connection
morals are a human construction
ergo so is "law"
this is evident in differing legal systems across the world and even on a smaller scale in the decisions of different judges/juries etc. who exist within the same social environment

nom sayin'

they may be commensurate but certainly legitimate arguments exist that law isn't exactly robust in terms of considering more complex issues

for example the Heinz dilemma law says: stealing is wrong. some people agree, some people say it is "right" within a certain context.
I think it is the reason that policy reasoning exists - because even law makers understand that morality is individualistic by nature and so it is up to the judge to decide upon depending on the situation. Granted policy reasoning includes many other decisions, but morality is one of them :p
But overall, yeah. It is easy to just conclude that laws should be morally righteous because it would be in the interests of people to have their morals protected. Things like it is morally wrong to murder, and so murder is illegalised reflect this. But on the whole, morally contentious issues reflect the difficulties the law would have in trying to provide a 'morally' just outcome because of the many different moral opinions.

On a side note though, it would be interesting to see what some of the mods who do law, like enoilgam, think about this.
 

Crobat

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based on what
This is where it kind of gets a bit hazy. In my honest opinion, it's easy to say that morals are inherently human, but I'm not comfortable accepting that can you reasonably suggest that someone would know that stealing, hurting, or killing someone is wrong if they had not been told to that it was in the first place. Granted they would come to that conclusion by seeing the travesty they commit on another person by doing these crimes, but the assumption remains that they had to learn that it was wrong before knowing that it was wrong.

You are raised to think in a specific manner which would concurrently condition your sense of right and wrong, i.e. your morals. I think morals transcend time purely because you raise your kids in an environment in which you believe to be morally just, which is a belief likely to have been handed down to you by your parents, and their parents, and their parents before them, etc.

But that is my opinion on morals. There were many in my seminar who believed morals were just ingrained in the human condition and that there was no need to 'learn' what was right and wrong, because there are things just so blatantly wrong you couldn't possibly believe anything else. And I can see a sort of logic in that assumption too.
 

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