Law Path (1 Viewer)

[wil123]

Hey guys, I'm an aspiring law student who is about to start uni, and doing law has always been my ambition right from the start. What hasn't been so clear is what field i would like to get into out of a couple of the major options. I've always thought either criminal law or commercial law but can't decide which because of the lack of clarity surrounding ones role, and the process of moving up in these sorts of jobs.
For example, coming from USYD or UNSW and getting into a major firm in commercial law, is the final aim to become a partner or just a senior lawyer who just remains in this position until retirement?

And with criminal law, at the end of the day if you end up working for yourself, isn't that the same as someone who graduates from eg. UWS with a law degree and end up in the same position despite not working as hard to get into the course as someone from say UNSW OR USYD with their higher uai requirements obviously?
Or are there major criminal law firms as well where you can start off at straight out of uni for the sort of salary that i know commercial firms offer graduates? If not, where do you start as a criminal lawyer who eventually wants to work for themselves?

Also, what's required to get from solicitor to barrister where the big guns are and how long would this usually take before one can try to step up? I've heard of barristers earning in excess of 6 grand a day, so how much would an average solicitor earn?

Finally, what are the hours and pay like in both? And which is the most stressful?

I know theres plenty in there but i'm really looking ahead atm and any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
Will

 

[RogueAcademic]

Hey guys, I'm an aspiring law student who is about to start uni, and doing law has always been my ambition right from the start. What hasn't been so clear is what field i would like to get into out of a couple of the major options.

Crim Law is a very different field from Comm Law. As a crim lawyer you’ll be working with the justice/court system a lot more than the average comm lawyer. Most 'aspiring lawyers' of your age say exactly the same thing when I ask them why - they've always wanted to be a lawyer, but when you ask them why or what area they want to practice in, the answer is basically "I don't know". They've got no clear idea of what it really involves so it's really just the idea of being 'lawyer' as glamourised on TV or from their parents about perceived prestige or salary. I guess this is what leads to the numerous cases of depression in the profession or the high burnout rate of young lawyers who discover that it's not as glamorous as they thought it is.

For example, coming from USYD or UNSW and getting into a major firm in commercial law, is the final aim to become a partner or just a senior lawyer who just remains in this position until retirement?

The question you’ve asked is very simplistic. The simple answer to your question is a “yes, maybe”.

It’s like asking “is it the final aim in surfing to ride a wave?” Technically yes but there’s a lot more to it, there’s the sun and surf, there’s the beach, there’s the lifestyle, the getting there with your friends, finding the secret surf spot that only you and your friends know about, the surf culture, surf comps, watching out for sharks, the list goes on.

Or it’s like asking “is the aim of life to stay alive until the day you die?” Answer, “technically yes” but of course there’s a lot more to it.

And with criminal law, at the end of the day if you end up working for yourself, isn't that the same as someone who graduates from eg. UWS with a law degree and end up in the same position despite not working as hard to get into the course as someone from say UNSW OR USYD with their higher uai requirements obviously?

Goes to show you that sometimes, it really doesn’t matter where you got your law degree, doesn’t it? It comes down to how good a lawyer you are, not how high your UAI is. The UWS graduate might be a better lawyer than you, and therefore more successful than you. Just because you graduated from UNSW or USyd doesn’t mean you’re smarter than a UWS graduate. Out in the real world, your client won’t care how high your UAI is.

Or are there major criminal law firms as well where you can start off at straight out of uni for the sort of salary that i know commercial firms offer graduates? If not, where do you start as a criminal lawyer who eventually wants to work for themselves?

There is nothing to stop you working on your own as a lawyer. In fact, after graduating with your law degree, you could complete PLT at the law college, and then that’s it really, you’re certified to open your own practice, no questions asked.

There are criminal law firms out there. But if your sole concern is salary, I wouldn’t be looking at crim law.

Also, what's required to get from solicitor to barrister where the big guns are and how long would this usually take before one can try to step up? I've heard of barristers earning in excess of 6 grand a day, so how much would an average solicitor earn?

“Big Guns” does not equal “barrister”, I don’t know where you got that idea from.

The most respected QC or SC makes up to $15,000 a day but there are only a few who do (for eg. Tom Hughes QC commands a fee of $10,000 a day but he’s been in the business for a very very very long time). How much you charge relates to how big your reputation is. You could charge $10,000 a day but if you're a fresh graduate and nobody knows who you are, you'll be the laughing stock of the legal community and you won't get any work.

If you want to become a barrister, the only other additional training you need to do is complete Bar training requirements and that’s it. Most barristers work for a few years as a solicitor first to gain experience and establish a network so that work will come their way. The first couple of years as a barrister is a struggle, it’s not easy for a new barrister to establish their reputation.

how much would an average solicitor earn?

Like the salary of a barrister, there is no straight answer about the salary of a solicitor. Solicitors make anywhere from $30k p.a. to 6 or 7 figure salaries. It depends on a whole range of factors like how many years you've been in the workforce, what experience you've gained, your position and what kind of work you do. Basically the same kind of factors what determines your salary as a barrister.

 

[wil123]

Thanx mate, absolute champion.

 

[hfis]

There is nothing to stop you working on your own as a lawyer. In fact, after graduating with your law degree, you could complete PLT at the law college, and then that’s it really, you’re certified to open your own practice, no questions asked.

Everything that RogueAcademic said is solid advice, but I should point out that it's necessary to work as an employed solicitor on a restricted practising certificate for two years before you're able to get the unrestricted/principal certificate required for solo practise

 

[RogueAcademic]

Everything that RogueAcademic said is solid advice, but I should point out that it's necessary to work as an employed solicitor on a restricted practising certificate for two years before you're able to get the unrestricted/principal certificate required for solo practise

All I can say to that is.. "d'oh".

 

[wil123]

Everything that RogueAcademic said is solid advice, but I should point out that it's necessary to work as an employed solicitor on a restricted practising certificate for two years before you're able to get the unrestricted/principal certificate required for solo practise

Yeah thats cool, i never planned on working for myself straigh outa uni, but would people with knowledge/experience recommend working for a crim law firm out of uni, or for a smaller, say family run business? Im guessing the big firms pay more, but the smaller business gives greater responsibility/opportunity which helps to develop skills required to become a prominent lawyer one day..

Cheers

 

[RogueAcademic]

Yeah thats cool, i never planned on working for myself straigh outa uni, but would people with knowledge/experience recommend working for a crim law firm out of uni, or for a smaller, say family run business? Im guessing the big firms pay more, but the smaller business gives greater responsibility/opportunity which helps to develop skills required to become a prominent lawyer one day..

Cheers

It really depends on what your career plans are, and what your requirements for being a 'prominent lawyer' are. If, as you say, 'barrister = big gun', then I don't see why you couldn't work for a crim law firm from the start, particularly if you're looking at specialising as a crim law barrister.

If, by 'prominent lawyer' you mean a partner of a top tier private law firm with a 6-7 figure salary, I'd recommend making a start in a top tier private law firm asap.

 

[Cookie182]

The OP has good intentions, but as RogueAcademic rightfully points out, UAI is a joke the day you step into uni. LOL at the UWS student doing the same job as you, your tone suggests disbelief that he is there. I have many friends at my uni (UOW) who achieved 99+ UAI and are at their local uni for other factors- close to home, friendship circles etc, LACK OF MONEY TO LIVE IN SYDNEY (my reason!!!). Just because you don't attend the Sydney Sandstones does not at all mean you’re less of a lawyer. For instance, UOW use to be a subsidiary of UNSW. We now have a few of their law teachers, the course is practically the same, I've even compared textbooks/course materials= SAME. So technically, you can understand law just as well if not better then students which attend those institutions, making you a better criminal lawyer. I know who the client prefers…the best lawyer

 

[hfis]

Yeah thats cool, i never planned on working for myself straigh outa uni, but would people with knowledge/experience recommend working for a crim law firm out of uni, or for a smaller, say family run business? Im guessing the big firms pay more, but the smaller business gives greater responsibility/opportunity which helps to develop skills required to become a prominent lawyer one day..

Cheers

The big firms do indeed pay more, but they really work you for it. Long hours and high stress equals a high burn out rate; nice if you can take it though, I guess. And yes, these firms are certainly where the money is.

If you wanted to go to the bar you really want hands-on litigation work and client contact. Generally speaking, this is something you wont get in the top tier firms, and is something that smaller firms excel at. It's also worth noting that, in most places, you'll be earning an incredible amount of money after 3 years thanks to the industry's woeful retention rate. I'm among the first to say that people who study law 'for the money' are mistaken in their assumptions, but lawyers aren't poor by any stretch of the imagination. Don't worry about how much you'll potentially be earning and just focus on whatever you're interested in.

 

[wil123]

It really depends on what your career plans are, and what your requirements for being a 'prominent lawyer' are. If, as you say, 'barrister = big gun', then I don't see why you couldn't work for a crim law firm from the start, particularly if you're looking at specialising as a crim law barrister.

If, by 'prominent lawyer' you mean a partner of a top tier private law firm with a 6-7 figure salary, I'd recommend making a start in a top tier private law firm asap.

Lol what i meant by barrister being a big gun is the cash they earn. I mean 6 grand a day for a one with a good reputation obviously, id be happy with for the rest of my life lol without even trying to become SC..
So are you saying that if one works for themselves, its not possible to earn 6-7 figure salaries like partners in big firms?

What i really wanted to know is if there are any major law firms which specialise in CRIM like there are those in comm law which offer grads 60 or 70 grand first year, where obviously you could progress your way up through the ranks..?

 

[wil123]

The big firms do indeed pay more, but they really work you for it. Long hours and high stress equals a high burn out rate; nice if you can take it though, I guess. And yes, these firms are certainly where the money is.

If you wanted to go to the bar you really want hands-on litigation work and client contact. Generally speaking, this is something you wont get in the top tier firms, and is something that smaller firms excel at. It's also worth noting that, in most places, you'll be earning an incredible amount of money after 3 years thanks to the industry's woeful retention rate. I'm among the first to say that people who study law 'for the money' are mistaken in their assumptions, but lawyers aren't poor by any stretch of the imagination. Don't worry about how much you'll potentially be earning and just focus on whatever you're interested in.

Yeah sweet thanx for the advice, though it's just nice to know what you'd be looking at in planning for the future..

 

[RogueAcademic]

So are you saying that if one works for themselves, its not possible to earn 6-7 figure salaries like partners in big firms?

I didn't say that at all, in fact in a previous post above I was just talking about the top barristers who make $10k-$15k a day. You do the math to work out the potential annual earnings from that. Barristers are basically independent lawyers who work for themselves.

I was just trying to work out what you mean by 'big gun' and 'prominent' lawyer.

What i really wanted to know is if there are any major law firms which specialise in CRIM like there are those in comm law which offer grads 60 or 70 grand first year, where obviously you could progress your way up through the ranks..?

Well.. it really depends on what kind of clientele you have. I can't imagine that the average crim can afford obscene legal fees. The barristers or lawyers who make crazy amounts of money are those who tend to represent big time corporate commercial clients. In the crim law area, you'd be talking about white collar crime clients who can afford the best (and expensive) lawyers (ie. Steve Vizard, Maddoff, the scumbags from Enron etc).

The average crim law firm handles mostly non-white-collar crime matters (ie. murder, rape, assault, theft, minor fraud etc), although I must say that certain crim-types do have the financial resources to pay a lot of money.. (*cough* bikies, mafia figures *cough*)....

 

[wil123]

Sorry to drag this out guys, but let me just make my aim a bit clearer. If say, at the end of the day, i want to open up my own small firm and deal with my own clients directly and maybe have another one or two lawyers with me, becoming a 'prominent' lawyer in building a reputation/client base in this regard, where should i apply for a job straight out of university? Would a top firm be helpful for a couple of years in gaining experience? Or what is the other route people take if they want to work for themselves eventually?
The dilemma i face is that, i'd like to deal with wide-ranging issues that private clients come with, not specifically criminal issues, although they will be included. Where's it best to start for this? And so whats the point of working in a commercial law firm to start with, aside from the salary factor for first year in the workforce?

Cheers.

 

[RogueAcademic]

I don't know that there is a 'best' way, there are so many variables involved. It sounds like what you really need to do is talk to actual lawyers who are doing the kind of thing you want to do and ask them how they got to where they're at.

The way I see it, there are two types of lawyers who run their own small firms (not including rural law firms). They are either the small suburban law firm who deal with a wide range of mostly mom-n-pop legal issues.

Or they are the highly experienced senior associate or partner lawyers who have spent many years in a high position at a private commercial law firm. They've decided to part ways with their big law firms for whatever reason, take their clients (through their established networks), and head off to start their own highly specialised law firms dealing with their specified and small (but very rich) client base.

 

[Cookie182]

Well, I'd say the first step involves-

1) Starting Law School

2) Surviving Law School (You really have to get here before you have any idea what it is like)

3) Loving Law enough to want to pursue it as a career (5 yrs can sway even the most dedicated PRE law student into other avenues)

4) Getting the marks to even be considered for these firms

I'm not being negative, I think it's great you have ambition, but remember it never hurts to just be slightly present minded as well. I'd say take it one step at a time, learn what areas of law you are in interested in, do some research throughout your degree, there is plenty of time to decide.

 

[RogueAcademic]

That is good advice.

 

[Cookie182]

Cheers man

 

[wil123]

Awesome. Thanks boys.

 

[Strawbaby]

Well, I'd say the first step involves-

1) Starting Law School

2) Surviving Law School (You really have to get here before you have any idea what it is like)

3) Loving Law enough to want to pursue it as a career (5 yrs can sway even the most dedicated PRE law student into other avenues)

4) Getting the marks to even be considered for these firms

I'm not being negative, I think it's great you have ambition, but remember it never hurts to just be slightly present minded as well. I'd say take it one step at a time, learn what areas of law you are in interested in, do some research throughout your degree, there is plenty of time to decide.

QFT
I didn't even begin law school intending to be a lawyer.
If you can, try and get jobs in each main 'area' - like with some barristers, in a small law firm, in a community legal centre, in a big law firm - that you're vaguely interested in after a bit of study and see how you find the work and the overall life led by the people around you. If you've got an idea of where you want to go, great, but don't pidgeonhole yourself into an area and throw away good opportunities until you've actually studied and experienced it first-hand... things aren't always as interesting, or as boring, as they sound.