Legal Aid Practioner (1 Viewer)

[Cookie182]

As I am only in first year i have a long while to go before even bothering applying, but was wonderng whether anyone has interest in working in Legal Aid centres throughout the Sydney Metropolitian area. Seems like interesting work...do they let 2nd/3rd years do work experience? Not that this is overly important, but i noticed the hourly rate is also $150/hr! is this correct??

Any final year law students heading into legal aid work or currently work within the system and would like to shed some light on their experience??

How competitive are positions?

 

[hfis]

You'll note that the average 'hourly rate' in private practice is generally in the vicinity of $350/hour. The solicitors don't actually get that much.

Legal Aid positions tend to be pretty competitive, and most people I know who work there have done considerable stints in the Community Legal Centre system. The wage is pretty good, and as it's a government initiative, the working conditions are also pretty nice.

The downside is that there isn't much scope for specialization in anything other than criminal or family law, and the matters which you do become pretty routine and mundane. You don't do murders, rapes or multimillion dollar family law property proceedings at Legal Aid; rather, you do assaults, petty larceny, and the odd divorce or child care proceeding.

To my knowledge, they take anyone upwards of 3rd year, and depending on the location are pretty good when it comes to voluntary work experience (it's the paid positions which are competitive). You might as well phone the nearest office to you and talk to someone about it, there's no harm in doing so.

 

[Cookie182]

You'll note that the average 'hourly rate' in private practice is generally in the vicinity of $350/hour. The solicitors don't actually get that much.

Legal Aid positions tend to be pretty competitive, and most people I know who work there have done considerable stints in the Community Legal Centre system. The wage is pretty good, and as it's a government initiative, the working conditions are also pretty nice.

The downside is that there isn't much scope for specialization in anything other than criminal or family law, and the matters which you do become pretty routine and mundane. You don't do murders, rapes or multimillion dollar family law property proceedings at Legal Aid; rather, you do assaults, petty larceny, and the odd divorce or child care proceeding.

To my knowledge, they take anyone upwards of 3rd year, and depending on the location are pretty good when it comes to voluntary work experience (it's the paid positions which are competitive). You might as well phone the nearest office to you and talk to someone about it, there's no harm in doing so.

Ok thanks for all the info- sounds interesting though, although i agree that if you were doing it day in day out the lack of variety in the work would certainly become a drawback.

Wow $350/hr- of course it would be nice to actually earn that as the solicitor- any idea what private practice solicitors do earn on average an hour, presumably after tax- I know an ED resident (medicine) who earns $150/ hr (might be before tax) is there similar money in law? Im not sure why but i always presumed that docs earned more...

 

[hfis]

Lawyers are generally salaried, they don't get paid hourly rates. There's a plethora of information online about this, although a ballpark figure would range from $42 000 for a recent graduate, to $500 000+ for a partner at a top tier firm. The 'average' is probably somewhere around $70-80 000.

Of interesting note, some Senior Counsel at the bar charge $6000/hour, and top tier partners bill at upwards of $2000.

 

[amaccas]

So there are gradations amongst partners? Interesting. I thought once you were partner you plateud in terms of dollar earnings.

 

[Frigid]

So there are gradations amongst partners? Interesting. I thought once you were partner you plateud in terms of dollar earnings.

each firm is different (depends on partnership agreement).

usually it's based on base salary + partnership points. partnership points are determined on length of service, contribution, % of revenue etc. the actual value of each point differs yearly, depending on the profit pool of the firm for that year.

 

[Cookie182]

hmm wat about starting your own law firm- or even more general, a firm that is a collaboration of professional services- legal, accounting, financial planning, brokers, engineers (?)/shrinks (?) watever- i guess it would kind of be like a collection of professional services/consultants-

has this idea been tried before and would there be any chance of a law student successfully starting their own firm within the first 5 yrs out of uni- more to the point, would u instantaneously be a partner?

 

[BillytheFIsh]

Of interesting note, some Senior Counsel at the bar charge $6000/hour, and top tier partners bill at upwards of $2000.

Holy Moly! $6,000 an hour? Man. They wish.

Perhaps $6,000 and upwards per day (even $10k and upwards for some). Certainly not those figures per hour though.

 

[jackmurray1989]

Watch Boston Legal.

It goes:

1) Named Partner (Who can do whatever the hell they want).
2) Senior Partner
3) Junior Partner
4) Senior Associate
5) Junior Associate
6) Paralegals and Law Clerks (Who are all hot girls straight out of college).

 

[travelfish]

Of interesting note, some Senior Counsel at the bar charge $6000/hour, and top tier partners bill at upwards of $2000.

I thought it necessary to correct a few errors.

There is not any Senior Counsel in the professional that charge $6,000 an hour. That figure is completely inaccurate. I know of some very eminent Senior Counsel who we have briefed who charge $1,000 an hour, but you could count them on one hand. A fairly normal rate for a senior counsel is $800 an hour (plus GST) or between $8,000 and $10,000 a day when appearing in court, with $8,000 being around the average.

In relation to Top Tier partners, there are also no top tier law firm partners in Australia who charge $2,000 an hour. The majority of partners are charged out in the range of $550 to $650 an hour, depending on seniority. Tax partners have the highest charge out rates, and the highest I know of, last time I checked, was $800 an hour.

All of those figures exclude GST.

 

[subdued123]

travelfish is 900% correct.

At most firms, the top partners charge around $650. And that's top tier.

And in the Fin Review today, there was a piece of the absolute leader of the bar, Tom Hughes, and it quoted him as charging around $10,000 a day. The article went on to mention that the top barristers (creme de le creme) could get about $15,000, but this was rare. And this was for hearings. Nobody gets $6,000 for an hour as a charge out fee. What a joke.

I am disappointed that such blatantly incorrect figures are being tossed around. People need to be certain they know what they're talking about.

I would also like to see this "$150" an hour for legal aid business.
150 an hour is 900 bucks a day, at six hours. That's 4500 a week. That's $180000 a year, assuming a very conservative 40 week year. 180,000? Some senior associates at top tiers don't get that much. Unless i can see this ad in front of my face, i am doubting it.

As for the question above:
"So there are gradations amongst partners? Interesting. I thought once you were partner you plateud in terms of dollar earnings."

That model is called the lock-step model of partnership. That does mean that yes, once you are partner, that's it. However, these days, most firms make a distinction between equity and salaried partners. Equity Partners actually own a stake and derive a share of profits; salaried partners, as their names would suggest, receive fixed remuneration. The Financial review on fridays discusses many of these movements and every year there is a good survey in the Aussie that explains this :
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/files/new-firms2.swf
and click on the last tab, 'equity partners'.

 

[travelfish]

hmm wat about starting your own law firm- or even more general, a firm that is a collaboration of professional services- legal, accounting, financial planning, brokers, engineers (?)/shrinks (?) watever- i guess it would kind of be like a collection of professional services/consultants-

has this idea been tried before and would there be any chance of a law student successfully starting their own firm within the first 5 yrs out of uni- more to the point, would u instantaneously be a partner?

If you did start your own law firm, depending on the structure of the firm you started, you could be a partner. However, if I understand your question correctly, you might be confused between the title of "partner" as a sign of seniority, and the title of "partner" as a sign of the business structure under which a lot of lawyers practise.

That is, the word "partner" does not necessarily refer to your qualifications or level of experience in the legal professional. Rather, it refers to the type of business structure in which you work and your position within that business structure. Most traditional law firms operate as "partnerships", and in a partnership two or more "partners" together own and operate the business - they are in essence the "business owners" (depending, of course, on any partnership deed or agreement).

The reason that the title "partner" is often seen as a sign of seniority has to do with the way that most partners in law firms are created. In most firms, lawyers who have worked as employed practitioners (employed by the partnership), who have shown their value to the business over a long period of time, may be determined by the partners as being such an asset to the business that they should be able to share in its ownership and management. Normally a lawyer isn't considered for partnership until they have had a number of years of legal experience and developed good relationships with clients of their "own". Hence, the title partner in most cases also reflects a title of seniority.

A large number of legal practitioners also work as sole practitioners, and some now as lawyer directors (of incorporated legal practises). In any event, if you really want to know more about this topic in detail you need to have a basic understanding of business structures - I am sure there is a wealth of introductory level material in this regard available on the net.

If, however, you started your own firm, but worked by yourself, you'd instantly be a "sole practitioner" (although arguably you don't even need to start your own firm to do it, simply holding an unrestricted practising certificate would be enough for you to work as a sole practitioner). You wouldn't be able to refer to yourself as a "partner" - this simply wouldn't make sense, as you wouldn't be working in a partnership.

I hope that was helpful!

 

[Frigid]

as an aside: if you go into law purely for the money, you will be bitterly disappointed.. go into investment banking instead.

 

[Cookie182]

If you did start your own law firm, depending on the structure of the firm you started, you could be a partner. However, if I understand your question correctly, you might be confused between the title of "partner" as a sign of seniority, and the title of "partner" as a sign of the business structure under which a lot of lawyers practise.

That is, the word "partner" does not necessarily refer to your qualifications or level of experience in the legal professional. Rather, it refers to the type of business structure in which you work and your position within that business structure. Most traditional law firms operate as "partnerships", and in a partnership two or more "partners" together own and operate the business - they are in essence the "business owners" (depending, of course, on any partnership deed or agreement).

The reason that the title "partner" is often seen as a sign of seniority has to do with the way that most partners in law firms are created. In most firms, lawyers who have worked as employed practitioners (employed by the partnership), who have shown their value to the business over a long period of time, may be determined by the partners as being such an asset to the business that they should be able to share in its ownership and management. Normally a lawyer isn't considered for partnership until they have had a number of years of legal experience and developed good relationships with clients of their "own". Hence, the title partner in most cases also reflects a title of seniority.

A large number of legal practitioners also work as sole practitioners, and some now as lawyer directors (of incorporated legal practises). In any event, if you really want to know more about this topic in detail you need to have a basic understanding of business structures - I am sure there is a wealth of introductory level material in this regard available on the net.

If, however, you started your own firm, but worked by yourself, you'd instantly be a "sole practitioner" (although arguably you don't even need to start your own firm to do it, simply holding an unrestricted practising certificate would be enough for you to work as a sole practitioner). You wouldn't be able to refer to yourself as a "partner" - this simply wouldn't make sense, as you wouldn't be working in a partnership.

I hope that was helpful!

yea definately helpful- i understand that u would be technically a 'partner' as the business owner, sepcifically if you own it equally with another person, however that does not correlate to a position of seniority/power from a professional P.O.V- i guess that needs to be earned through networking, ability and experience.

The sole trading sounds interesting- im just one of those persons that doesnt see a 'big firm' life in my future- my dad has always ran his own business (gardening difffers a lot from law) but i like the idea of being my own boss- although i still think that i would practice under a firm for at least a few years until i felt experienced enough to go out on my own- i guess on your own there is an immence amount of pressure upon yourself. I know barristers basically all operate as sole traders but how about solicitors? All solicitors i know work in firms...but then again i dont know that many (~5).

With the professional services idea i was thinking of majoring in accounting- can u work as an acocuntant/lawyer concurrently- as in do people's tax but also have specialised tax law knowledge for eg and have the power to draft documents, basic litigation etc

 

[Cookie182]

travelfish is 900% correct.


I would also like to see this "$150" an hour for legal aid business.
150 an hour is 900 bucks a day, at six hours. That's 4500 a week. That's $180000 a year, assuming a very conservative 40 week year. 180,000? Some senior associates at top tiers don't get that much. Unless i can see this ad in front of my face, i am doubting it.

hmm your probably right...im responsible for that figure however i guess i misread it- see for yourself, i guess that is the 'fee' charged (although legal aid is free?) but the actual attorney probably only gets a salary per year or maybe a cut of that fee (of course before tax as well)-

http://www.legalaid.nsw.gov.au/asp/index.asp?pgid=724

"Effective 1 July 2007, the fees payable to private practitioners will increase to a base hourly rate of $150 per hour or an equivalent percentage increase applied to fees already above the base rate."

 

[travelfish]

http://www.legalaid.nsw.gov.au/asp/index.asp?pgid=724

"Effective 1 July 2007, the fees payable to private practitioners will increase to a base hourly rate of $150 per hour or an equivalent percentage increase applied to fees already above the base rate."

I expect what that refers to is the amount that Legal Aid will pay to private practitioners, when private practitioners are instructed or briefed by Legal Aid to do legal work on Legal Aid's behalf.

 

[amaccas]

how may solicitors would be on 600+/hour

 

[subdued123]

not many would be charging that much.

Most fee earners in large firms (yep, not even called lawyers, fee-earners in some places, esp. UK) starting out charge 250-350 and hour, and then 350-550 as snr associates.

Out on the suburbs your sole practitioner might get away with 150-250 an hour. But the sole practitioner actually keeps it. The lawyer in a large firm might end up billing 400-600k in legal fees a year, and gets a fraction of that. However, many firms now do what is called an incentive/bonus where you receive a small %tage of anything you bill over a certain amount.

Everything you need to know is here:
http://www.mahlab.com.au/index.cfm?pageID=43

Just register (it's free) and you will find some very helpful info. It tells you who's earning what.

P.s. Frigid is right - investment banking is where the big money is at (150k as a grad sound nice?) However the culture is by all accounts unsustainable and generally cut-throat. And when investment banks lay staff off, they do it in style.
http://www.crainsnewyork.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080601/FREE/666226628/1008/information


It's not all about money.

 

[Frigid]

P.s. Frigid is right - investment banking is where the big money is at (150k as a grad sound nice?) However the culture is by all accounts unsustainable and generally cut-throat. And when investment banks lay staff off, they do it in style.
http://www.crainsnewyork.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080601/FREE/666226628/1008/information


It's not all about money.

haha, depends on what value you place on things outside work. my friends are the cut-throat, burn-candle-at-both-end types...

but money's important. their packages dwarf my little law firm pay packet.

 

[Cookie182]

putting money aside, how common are random sexual relationships within big firm culture- does Boston Legal paint a fair picture??? lol