Microsoft Licensing Fees for MSN Messenger Service. (1 Viewer)

[Agent Z]

As Many of you may know, recently Microsoft announced that MSN Messenger users must install the latest version of the MSN Messenger software, by October 15th, which uses a different and more secure authentication procedure.

According to Microsoft spokesman Sean Sundwall, "Security issues that could be posed on the older versions that require us to force an upgrade." He declined to detail the security issue, saying disclosure would "put customers at undue risk." Thus Microsoft is also forcing developers of third-party IM software, which enables users to connect to the .NET Messenger Service, to purchase a license for access.

Consequently there has been much commotion from users of Trillian and Gaim. Developers of this third-party software say that this is not only unjust but illegal. However, these statements are unfounded. Personally I believe that Microsoft is well within its boundaries and have good reason for imposing such a license.

MSN Messenger runs at an enormous losses at multiple millions of dollars to Microsoft. Owing to the immensity of the network, the MSN Messenger servers would deal with multiple terabytes of data necessary every week to let hundreds of millions of users connect to the service? This would mean vast costs in maintaining and upgrading the MSN Messenger servers.

If you look at the situation from Microsofts point of view, it all makes sense. Why should companies that provide third party software create bandwidth (and costs) for Microsoft at no benefit to Microsoft? If most of their users are using their network and servers but not their client, it is senseless for them to keep MSN Messenger client and servers operative.

When developers say that Microsoft cant start charging for a formerly open protocol they couldnt be any more wrong. Its not "using a formerly open protocol" here, we're talking about using a protocol to connect to servers we don't own, and Microsoft has every right to start charging fees for licenses.
I just keep hearing blindingly stupid comments by people saying that Microsoft has no right to do this and they are just trying to increase their monopololy. Just for once, try, try and visualise it from Microsoft's point of view.

I, for one, use Trillian, and completely undestand Microsoft's move, and will be happy to move to MSN on October 15th.

 

[Huy]

Your post is difficult to read


Blocking third party apps such as Trillian and GAIM etc (non-MS apps like Windows Mess and MSN Messenger) aren't all that effective, as it has been "cracked" (not in its truest sense, but Trillian Pro users (2.0) are still able to access the MSN .NET Messenger Service via a patch).

The way I see it, Microsoft will still be getting as many users on their MSN (Messenger) IM "service" - so there's no big deal really, if they want to be the #1 IM service out there, they should be able to handle the loads -- I mean, it was fine in the past, GAIM, Trillian, etc users being able to log in without a problem (now they're just letting users run the gauntlet, but there are always ways to bypass such measures - my mate's on trillian and talking to me, he even uses the MSN pictures and can view MSN Mess 6 images and emoticons, big whoop )

-- I can understand about the bandwidth/costs associated with maintaining such a network, but if everybody migrated to MSN Messenger 6, with the fancy-schmancy emoticons, "features", games and the like, including all current Windows Messenger (4.7 or 5) users to MSN6, as well as all MSN Explorer 9 and other users, that'll create even more of a network load... so what gives!

If people are sick and tired, they'll probably move back to ICQ or another protocol (IRC anyone? ).

I'm an MS supporter, all of my PCs run Windows 2000 or XP, (formerly 98 and 2K boxes, and during the millennium beta, ME )


I say: let people use whatever they want, if they're using the service, be thankful that you've got millions of users on your network - otherwise we'd all be back to Yahoo, AIM, IRC, ICQ, and whatnot.... (i believe most people are on MSN now, with a few exceptions).

 

[iambored]

everyone has to update? ok what about me - i have updated, but whenever i sign in it tells me there is a new version (but i am running the newest!!)

 

[Huy]

Originally posted by iambored
everyone has to update? ok what about me - i have updated, but whenever i sign in it tells me there is a new version (but i am running the newest!!)

Windows Messenger 5
http://messenger.microsoft.com/support/tou.asp

MSN Messenger 6
http://messenger.msn.com/

Update it through the website (download the install/setup.exe and install it from there, close off MSN/Windows Mess beforehand).

I reinstalled Windows the other day and tried to use Windows Messenger 4.7, to no avail.

Ended up downloading MSN 6 and using that instead, but I prefer Windows Messenger (no mess, no nonsense, plain chatting ). Now with Win Mess 5 though, they've got the new emoticons which are nice I suppose.

 

[Agent Z]

Originally Posted By Huy
Your post is difficult to read

Yeah, it was, I added carriage returns to make it easier. Sorry about that.

Originally Posted By Huy
Blocking third party apps such as Trillian and GAIM etc (non-MS apps like Windows Mess and MSN Messenger) aren't all that effective, as it has been "cracked" (not in its truest sense, but Trillian Pro users (2.0) are still able to access the MSN .NET Messenger Service via a patch).

But are the people at Cerulean waiting in the hope Microsoft won't see them and thinking "Itll pass along..."?
Due to microsoft's track record, i think not.

Originally Posted By Huy
The way I see it, Microsoft will still be getting as many users on their MSN (Messenger) IM "service" - so there's no big deal really, if they want to be the #1 IM service out there, they should be able to handle the loads -- I mean, it was fine in the past, GAIM, Trillian, etc users being able to log in without a problem

It's not the fact that people can just log on which ever client, its the fact that if your not using their client, what's the point of them spending multiple millions of dollars on r&d?

For example, if you designed a chat client and you used your computer as a server. How would you feel if I made an alternate client and allowed it to acces your server? Pretty pissed off i bet.

Also notice the Ad's at the bottom of the msn window (assuming you havn't disabled them yet)?? Well they link to other msn sites, which in turn have other ad's on them, just a small way of making up a fraction of expenditure.

Originally Posted By Huy
I can understand about the bandwidth/costs associated with maintaining such a network, but if everybody migrated to MSN Messenger 6, with the fancy-schmancy emoticons, "features", games and the like, including all current Windows Messenger (4.7 or 5) users to MSN6, as well as all MSN Explorer 9 and other users, that'll create even more of a network load... so what gives!

Well it's like i said before. Why should Microsoft virtually "give" away millions of dollars a year? Would you? No. So they don't want other clients using up their bandwidth.

Originally Posted By Huy
I say: let people use whatever they want, if they're using the service, be thankful that you've got millions of users on your network - otherwise we'd all be back to Yahoo, AIM, IRC, ICQ, and whatnot.... (i believe most people are on MSN now, with a few exceptions).

True, but try, just try and visualise it from microsoft's point of view. They've always been stingy from the start, so why stop now? Why let other companies reap rewards from their development.
Example: Trillian Pro - isn't free. But what is the user paying for? A client, a shell, to connect to what? Not cerulean servers. MSN servers.
MSN Servers

You gotta admit though, Microsoft deserves a lot more credit than it actually recieves.

 

[iambored]

Originally posted by Huy
Windows Messenger 5
http://messenger.microsoft.com/support/tou.asp

MSN Messenger 6
http://messenger.msn.com/

i do have 6, i just checked then

 

[Huy]

Also notice the Ad's at the bottom of the msn window (assuming you havn't disabled them yet)??

LOL...too late, patched it all up, no ads, no BETA text, no ads in the phone/dialer window, nada. :whistles:

But I am using MSN Mess, so they should be happy with me

Agent Z, you don't work for Microsoft do you?

Hehehe, it's good to see MS support (and I am in support of MS too), but it's out of your hands Agent Z... I mean, if everyone agreed with you on BOS, that won't stop others from 'rorting the system' per se.

You shouldn't be too worried about it, it's not your problem

But I know what you're saying, and you do have a point... I'm just not a MS fanboy or anything (not saying that you are).

 

[Agent Z]

Originally Posted by Huy
LOL...too late, patched it all up, no ads, no BETA text, no ads in the phone/dialer window, nada. :whistles:

Which i might just mention is in violation of the EULA...buuut i think we let it pass. Which is atually a pretty stupid EULA. I mean how popular/useful is the addon MSN Messenger Plus? But technically your not allowed to use it.

Originally Posted by Huy
Agent Z, you don't work for Microsoft do you?

*sigh* alas not yet...

Originally Posted by Huy
Hehehe, it's good to see MS support (and I am in support of MS too), but it's out of your hands Agent Z... I mean, if everyone agreed with you on BOS, that won't stop others from 'rorting the system' per se.

Yes, i know it's out of my hands, i was just merely voicing my opinion And I see why other people rort the system, but I don't see why people just make random comments about why Microsoft should do this, or shouldn't do that, or should be like this...Microsoft is losing enormous ammounts of money on MSN and it look's like they getting even again.
However, i surely will miss trillian...depends if i do patch it or not...

Originally Posted by Huy
You shouldn't be too worried about it, it's not your problem

Yes it isn't my problem. It's just that a lot of websites are portraying microsoft as 'evil' and they shouldn't be doing this, when in reality, they can sure as hell can do it.

But then again, Microsoft can do anything, as they control a massive share in the IT industry. What they do sets a standard. (Or what apple does sets the microsoft standard, which then sets everyone elses standard)
For example, Microsoft recently shut down the MSN Chatrooms to protect children's privacy (Which i actually disagree with this one) However, AOL Chief Executive said that it is likely that the AOL Chat rooms will remain operative however there will be strong industry pressure to shut down, following microsofts lead.
Such is the dominance of Microsoft.

 

[Winston]

i would debate the fact that trillian shouldn't be doing this, primarily because, it's just like you making a site and posting up download links that's hosted on your own server, and people are taking these links and posting it onto their own site, how is that ethically correct? I'm backing up Agent Z, you don't use MSN's client then your practically stealing their service, simply MS is generating revenues for their IM client through the banner, this is what's actually keeping MSN Messenger a free service. Agent Z has made strong points, this is just the same as ANTI-MS Windows people, why are they always creating viruses for Windows, locating flaws, Anti-Bill? WHAT? do i hear "Tall Poppy Syndrome", every single person on earth is selfish bastards i can gurantee that, i don't think Bill does it wrong, he's got the smart business minds that's what he gets in return all big company and lots of money, i don't care what they do, they make us a product, and in reason they don't do anything in bad practice, yes crushing small companies and monopolising the market with their powers is wrong but hey! if you were Bill i'm so damn sure you'll do that as well, no one will ever understand that, because all they want is things to be free, they take it for granted. If i was MS i'll just shut Trillian off for good, ALOT and i mean ALOT of computer illiterate people are so easily mis-lead because they don't care if they get it wrong, i mean some stupid people i know thought that trillian was the primary MSN client, how mis-leading is that?, what MS does the hard work and trillian takes the credit? ohhh great, i'm sure you'll like that happening to you, all i'm trying to say is, if trillian wants to include MSN into their clients they should talk with MS about it, rather than just stealing it.


But i'm pretty sure MS is going to implement their 5 Layer Authentication into MSN Messenger, just like MSN8/9 has, which is damn powerful and literally hard to break through, practically everything is done server side so i doubt Trillian can do anything about it.

 

[Huy]

What's with all the long (untruncated) posts... LOL

Agent Z has moved our 'quotathon' from IPT to IT stuff.
I need to study as well...

Which i might just mention is in violation of the EULA...buuut i think we let it pass. Which is atually a pretty stupid EULA.

Somebody reads the EULA...

 

[Winston]

Originally posted by Agent Z

For example, Microsoft recently shut down the MSN Chatrooms to protect children's privacy (Which i actually disagree with this one) However, AOL Chief Executive said that it is likely that the AOL Chat rooms will remain operative however there will be strong industry pressure to shut down, following microsofts lead.
Such is the dominance of Microsoft.

I agreed with their actions primarily because, pedophilia is becoming a big cause, i've been on those chatrooms just to see the structure, and you've got about 80% full of porn site hosts, and people talking dirty to kids, ewww... absolutely insane. It's a good move from MS, it's by all means too hard to filter things, since Australia's Police were literally hunting on the chat rooms for any suspects of pedophilia.

 

[Agent Z]

Originally Posted by Winston
Like Huy, i am taking a break from 28th September - November 14th

I see you, like Huy, couldn't do it.

But on a different note, I agree with Winston, who just happens was agreeing with me in the first place. Huy you have valid points, but your just taking it from a consumers point of view. Like winston said, if you were in Billys position would you just "let it pass" Doubt it. If i was in his position I would take massive advantage of my power. I would make sure i had no competition. Which in essence, Microsoft is doing. Incidently, Microsoft is also a majority share holder of Apple inc.

I really don't see why Cerulean Studios are having a full "bitch" about the whole thing. Microsoft isn't just going to let this pass. I smell a long and expensive legal battle coming up. Cerulean Studios are already charging users for their Pro version. Which is what? No different to MSN Messenger 6. However I don't see since their already charging why don't they just increase the licence cost (assuming everyone pays for trillian pro ) and purchase licences for the access of the new MSN Protocol.

Buuut on another note, Microsoft informed the pulblic, that third party licences will not be available till after October 15th, essentially blocking out all other clients. But it's not as though Microsoft is completely blocking out the servers. Soon if companies wish to do so, they can purchase licences and continue to use their own version of the Messenger Client.

 

[Huy]

Like Huy, i am taking a break from 28th September - November 14th

i took a week off, ask Lexi or Jeo
I wanted to take 4-8 weeks off, but I had to do some things before I started, but yeah, 1 week away from computers/internet/BOS is still an achievement

LOL yeah I see what you mean with the consumers POV, but I'm not Bill

LOL @ "paying for trillian pro" and "purchasing licenses"
(good thing i'm not mod hey Winston )

-- oh yeah, NO RULES!!! *dances*

Oh well, as long as you're not affected, life is sweet
(im not ignoring the problem... it just has nothing to do with me, since MSN and Win Mess is freely available to the public, ... so I just removed the annoying border/ads )

 

[Agent Z]

Originally Posted by Winston
I agreed with their actions primarily because, pedophilia is becoming a big cause, i've been on those chatrooms just to see the structure, and you've got about 80% full of porn site hosts, and people talking dirty to kids, ewww... absolutely insane. It's a good move from MS, it's by all means too hard to filter things, since Australia's Police were literally hunting on the chat rooms for any suspects of pedophilia.

Well, i see where your coming from now, but if it's not MSN Chatrooms, its just some other hosts. You cant stop this kind of activity. As long as their is chat services, there will be people who abuse it.

Originally Posted by Huy
Agent Z has moved our 'quotathon' from IPT to IT stuff.
I need to study as well...

Yes, yes i have. Noone was replying in ipt :'( So i decided to check out 'IT Stuff" which is actually pretty interesting And yeah, this is my last post of the day before I go and get some work in.

Originally Posted by Huy
Somebody reads the EULA...

Well.....not normally, but I was just wondering what was in it, theoretically they could say anything, however unreasonable and you would have to abide by it.

Concequently, if anyone has read the new MSN Messenger EULA you would find an interesting addition:

"MSN Reserves the right to start charging for these services at any time"[sic]

Which would be a profoundly stupid move if they did start charging for MSN...or unless they make a premium service like they've done with Hotmail.

 

[Agent Z]

It amazes me that whilst this thread has 47 views, only 3 people take the time to vote.
Well im off to study *yawn*

Originally Posted by Huy
"purchasing licenses"

Alright, consumers I guess could get away with not paying for licences (Unless cerulean pulls some wierd verification method that ensures one person is using a single key, i.e. that key is not shared) but it would be virtually impossible for the entire company to get away without purching the rights from microsoft...

And i think MSN Messenger is a big part of Microsoft, I mean you go to any school these days, and maybe 3 or 4 people dont use it. They have a massive network of subscribers. And most people dont understand/appreciate the time/effort/resources/money that it takes to create. MSN would be an enourmously complex network with so many users.

 

[McLake]

No upgrade needed for Version 3.5 (Mac) ...

 

[Agent Z]

Originally posted by McLake
No upgrade needed for Version 3.5 (Mac) ...

Hmmm...now thats wierd. But that is not possible!! Unless 3.5 is the latest version for mac? Otherwise it would still be using the old authentication procedure to try and connect to the MSN servers, which would boot you off since you don't have the updated protocol..and why, i question you, why, would Microsoft let MAC users take advantage of their servers for free?! That doesn't sound like microsoft at all! :O And also, if the Mac version of messenger didn't have to use hte new protocol, people would just export it so it can operate under a windows environment.

on another interesting note, i am reliabily informed that version 1 of MSN messenger no longer works on the MSN network...why anyone would want to use version 1 is a different story...

 

[Huy]

I believe 3.5 is the latest on the Mac.

Mac users don't use MSN (that much), I think iChat uses the AIM protocol instead (AOL IM).

Most Mac users won't be using MSN (not many that I know anyway, who both own Mac's and still connect to MSN) - but my school has iMacs and they all have MSN Messenger on it. (connecting properly).

 

[McLake]

Originally posted by Huy
I believe 3.5 is the latest on the Mac.

Mac users don't use MSN (that much), I think iChat uses the AIM protocol instead (AOL IM).

Most Mac users won't be using MSN (not many that I know anyway, who both own Mac's and still connect to MSN) - but my school has iMacs and they all have MSN Messenger on it. (connecting properly).

Yes, 3.5 is the latest.

Yes, iChat uses the AIM protocol (as does AVChat)

And I still use MSN

 

[karl]

Why shouldn't Microsoft do this?

Because they jumped on the bandwagon that advocated an Instant Messenging "Standard" protocol - against AOL when they made a similar move.

Yay for hypocracy...