Moderate muslims? (2 Viewers)

dan964

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That's why I mentioned KKK... The budist's killing muslims in Burma don't represent Buddhism and Israel doesn't represent Judaism. So why don't people apply this to ISIS ?
With the exception of the underlined statement (which is more political than religious statement); I would agree.
There are heaps of groups that would considered radical groups, the "Christian Identity" movement, KKK, IRA, some other cults (some have even suggest "United Patriot Front" etc.) are some of the ones that claim the Christian label, there are Hindu radicals in South Asia, killing Muslims & Christians. There are radical Muslims (not affiliated with a group) killing Christians and other Muslims whom they consider too Western or as apostates. Then there is Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, ISIS, Boko Horam; affiliated groups in Somalia, Afghanistan etc.


The worst atrocities the Christian Church has committed has been when it has NOT followed the very clear and explicit instructions in the Bible but deviated.
The real question comes to this, does Islamic belief foster that? Your answer would be no. The question is not whether radical Muslims represent moderate Muslims, because they don't as you stated; but does the Quran itself, or Islam itself foster such behaviour -- i.e. is Islam actually a religion of peace; or not? That is the real question firstly; because it is obvious that moderates are not radicalised.


I linked this video two pages ago, I doesn't represent my opinion/view on the matter, but I think it raises some valid points (the statistics part):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7TAAw3oQvg

Yes, there is the KKK, and other radicals (Crusades is the commonly quoted example); there are also non-religious groups who have committed terrible deeds (example under Germany's regime, Soviet Russia, Mao etc.)

The difference is two things:
1. The number of people (the KKK is about 8000 is the US, while 'Muslim' radicals are about 270,000 milllion or 15-20% estimated by intelligence data)
2. Whether their beliefs match up with their teachings in their authoritative source i.e. Bible or Quran (KKK is obviously not, Muslims will have defend/argue likewise that ISIS is not; which I wouldn't comment on further)

The reason I can make these claims, because Mormons also claim to be Christians, as do JWs; and from (2) their teachings do not match up...
Likewise for KKK. (Don't know much about IRA)
 
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dan964

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Most Muslim's condemn these.
What are the statistics? Is that an inference of some statistical data

In regards to implementation of sharia law some don't even know the details of it... Sharia law in the prophet(sas)time ONLY applied to the Muslims and the other religions were allowed to practice which ever law they wanted to (Even though they were now the rulers of Mecca) Is this what we're seeing in these so called "Muslim" countries... That is not a Muslim belief to force everyone into sharia law... "La iqraha fideen" this is a verse the extremist groups never quote... Forcing is not a Muslim belief and nearly every Muslim knows this we just have a few black sheep who do not conform to this or rule out the verse...

Again the statistics may be true for Western countries. But does this account for a majority of the total Muslim population.

note on Surah 2:256:
Part 1: S. A. Rahman, Punishment of Apostasy in Islam, Institute of Islamic Culture, Lahore, 1972, p.16-25
This discussion on the apostate and freedom of religion does not simply begin and end with the citation of Qur'an 2:256. True to his assertion that the verse "deserves detailed discussion", he proceeds to discuss the matter, sadly noting also a variety of concerns and opinions on the matter which "whittle down" the verse's "broad humanistic meaning":
1.
Some Quranic exegetes state that Qur'an 2:256 has been abrogated by the following verses:
O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them.... (9:73)
O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you.... (9:123)
Say unto those of the wondering Arabs who were left behind: Ye will be called against a folk of mighty prowess to fight them until they surrender.... (48:16)[7]

(This believes me to think that either the Quran is being inconsistent)

2. Rahman also notes the various opinions of the Qur'anic commentators regarding the circumstances surrounding the revelation (shan-i nuzul) of Qur'an 2:256:
a. the revelation blocked an Ansar woman from forcing her Jewish boy to convert to Islam;
b. the revelation blocked an Ansar father from forcing his two Christian sons to convert to Islam;
c. the revelation permitted a member of the People of the Book to retain his religion;
d. the revelation referred to the People of the Book who agreed to pay jizyah.

He also notes, however, that the esteemed Indian Muslim scholar, Shah Wali Ullah, does not confine the application of such a verse to the particular incident only. "On the contrary, the verse should be held to convey the commandment contained therein, generally."

Part 2: A translation of "Sure 2, 256: la ikraha fi d-dini: Toleranz oder Resignation?" in Der Islam, Walter De Gruyter, Berlin, Vol. 45, 1967, pp. 299-300.
To be sure, however, the situation was different for members of the pre-Islamic pagan Arab society. After the community which the Prophet had established had extended its power over the whole of Arabia, the pagan Arabs were forcefully compelled to accept Islam; stated more accurately, they had to choose either to accept Islam or death in battle against the superior power of the Muslims (cf. surahs 8:12; 47:4). This regulation was later sanctioned in Islamic law. All this stands in open contradiction to the alleged meaning of the Quranic statement, noted above: la ikraha fi d-dini. The idolaters (mushrikun) were clearly compelled to accept Islam - unless they preferred to let themselves be killed.

In view of these circumstances it makes sense to consider another meaning. Perhaps originally the statement la ikraha fi d-dini did not mean that in matters of religion one ought not to use compulsion against another but that one could not use compulsion against another (through the simple proclamation of religious truth). This seems even more likely in the light of surah 10:100, 101 or 12:103

Conclusion: Both of these passages demonstrate that the Prophet's zeal to convert was doomed for the most part to be without success as a result of human recalcitrance. In agreement with this it is possible to understand la ikraha fi d-dini to mean that no one can be compelled to (right) belief. The statement of the Qur'an 2:256, then, would be not a proclamation of tolerance, but much more an expression of resignation.
===
Yes I agree... Did you watch the ISIS propaganda video? Notice how they only quoted one verse and it was out of context...

That's what these terrorist groups are all doing and thus we say they are radicalised because they take things out of context no?
The same can be said about Surah 5:32

I think it is easy to say that (terrorists) took verses out of context but such statement needs justification/explanation. Look I don't disagree with you that they took things out of context, but you need to explain them correctly to show that they did indeed remove it out of context. Thanks.
 
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dan964

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Theres a difference between certain groups and the whole world lol... You can't compare any religion to ISIS just like you can't compare any religion to the KKK.... The good Muslims who actually follow what the Quran and sunnah teaches will never insult your religion. Furthermore the good Muslim will never retaliate in physical or economic action to one who insults their religion but would rather discuss the issue.
On second thoughts you didn't actually address what I said in full.
"Muslims need to not ask for special privileges. Yes hate, is a bad thing. But telling people not to examine what Islam teaches, to see if actually is as liberals/Obama claim "a religion of peace" is uncritical. " And how do we find that out? Well, the Quran firstly (and Haddiths* *filtered through Quran).

So that is what I am hinting at, not that Muslims are radical; but whether Islam itself. I know in Christianity, being conservative doesn't mean you are extreme (despite what some people think), but the question we has to ask is Islam similar in this respect.
 

dan964

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tbh I don't mind, I like it when people criticize my religion it allows me not to believe blindly :)
Yes and no.
I don't mind provided there is justification
I am kind of used to seeing it.
No, in the sense that criticism doesn't necessitate critical thinking.
 

dan964

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and there is this one from Surah 9:29-31
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah"; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded? They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him." -

and this entire thread...
http://community.boredofstudies.org...604/thread-islam-sceptics-sympathisers-1.html
 

dan964

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Surah 9, for a bit more context.
=====
1. [This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.
2. So travel freely, [O disbelievers], throughout the land [during] four months but know that you cannot cause failure to Allah and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.
3. And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah . And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment.
4. Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].
5. And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
6. And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.
7. How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].
8. How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient.
9. They have exchanged the signs of Allah for a small price and averted [people] from His way. Indeed, it was evil that they were doing.
10. They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection. And it is they who are the transgressors.
11. But if they repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, then they are your brothers in religion; and We detail the verses for a people who know.
12. And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease.
13. Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.
14. Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people
15. And remove the fury in the believers' hearts. And Allah turns in forgiveness to whom He wills; and Allah is Knowing and Wise.
16. Do you think that you will be left [as you are] while Allah has not yet made evident those among you who strive [for His cause] and do not take other than Allah , His Messenger and the believers as intimates? And Allah is Acquainted with what you do.
17. It is not for the polytheists to maintain the mosques of Allah [while] witnessing against themselves with disbelief. [For] those, their deeds have become worthless, and in the Fire they will abide eternally.
18. The mosques of Allah are only to be maintained by those who believe in Allah and the Last Day and establish prayer and give zakah and do not fear except Allah , for it is expected that those will be of the [rightly] guided.
19. Have you made the providing of water for the pilgrim and the maintenance of al-Masjid al-Haram equal to [the deeds of] one who believes in Allah and the Last Day and strives in the cause of Allah ? They are not equal in the sight of Allah . And Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.
20. The ones who have believed, emigrated and striven in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives are greater in rank in the sight of Allah . And it is those who are the attainers [of success].
21. Their Lord gives them good tidings of mercy from Him and approval and of gardens for them wherein is enduring pleasure.
22. [They will be] abiding therein forever. Indeed, Allah has with Him a great reward.
23. O you who have believed, do not take your fathers or your brothers as allies if they have preferred disbelief over belief. And whoever does so among you - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.
24. Say, [O Muhammad], "If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your relatives, wealth which you have obtained, commerce wherein you fear decline, and dwellings with which you are pleased are more beloved to you than Allah and His Messenger and jihad in His cause, then wait until Allah executes His command. And Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people."
25. Allah has already given you victory in many regions and [even] on the day of Hunayn, when your great number pleased you, but it did not avail you at all, and the earth was confining for you with its vastness; then you turned back, fleeing.
26. Then Allah sent down His tranquillity upon His Messenger and upon the believers and sent down soldiers angels whom you did not see and punished those who disbelieved. And that is the recompense of the disbelievers.
27. Then Allah will accept repentance after that for whom He wills; and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
28. O you who have believed, indeed the polytheists are unclean, so let them not approach al-Masjid al-Haram after this, their [final] year. And if you fear privation, Allah will enrich you from His bounty if He wills. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Wise.
29. Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
30. The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?
31. They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.
32. They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it.
33. It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it.
34. O you who have believed, indeed many of the scholars and the monks devour the wealth of people unjustly and avert [them] from the way of Allah . And those who hoard gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah - give them tidings of a painful punishment.
35. The Day when it will be heated in the fire of Hell and seared therewith will be their foreheads, their flanks, and their backs, [it will be said], "This is what you hoarded for yourselves, so taste what you used to hoard."
...
 

Drsoccerball

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1. It shows you're ignorance in the matter: Christians do not believe that God engaged with an sexual act of any form with the virgin Mary. (the only group I know that would actually believe that are the Mormons and they are wrong). Even DrSoccerball knows this. Concerning the word "beget", most scholars believe that word is not in the original text anyway (by checking the earlier manuscripts);
2. Even if Christians did hold that; which they don't. I still don't still the relevance to this thread. I know you were attempting to answer the question "how can God be a pedophile"; but I reckon the original statement was actually directed ( durrrrrr) probably towards Mohammed.
3. The statement about Mohammed, I'd leave for Muslims to defend, but I can guarantee that would probably deny it or justify it. Cannot be certain.
What are you trying to say ahhaha? I won't break of topic though since the topic of discussion is not the trinity but I would like to defend the statement of Muhammad(sas) being called "A pedophile" but however I see no point as no matter what I say they won't be convinced... We can talk about it in PM where we actually look to understand rather than criticise if you like?
 

Drsoccerball

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With the exception of the underlined statement (which is more political than religious statement); I would agree.
There are heaps of groups that would considered radical groups, the "Christian Identity" movement, KKK, IRA, some other cults (some have even suggest "United Patriot Front" etc.) are some of the ones that claim the Christian label, there are Hindu radicals in South Asia, killing Muslims & Christians.
Agreed.

There are radical Muslims (not affiliated with a group) killing Christians and other Muslims whom they consider too Western or as apostates.
One's with limited knowledge that don't follow the Quran and Hadith yeah I agree...(context)

Then there is Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, ISIS, Boko Horam; affiliated groups in Somalia, Afghanistan etc.
Again a group that quotes one verse out of context cannot represent and does not represent the whole religion.

The worst atrocities the Christian Church has committed has been when it has NOT followed the very clear and explicit instructions in the Bible but deviated.

Same thing with the QURAN.

The real question comes to this, does Islamic belief foster that? Your answer would be no. The question is not whether radical Muslims represent moderate Muslims, because they don't as you stated; but does the Quran itself, or Islam itself foster such behaviour -- i.e. is Islam actually a religion of peace; or not? That is the real question firstly; because it is obvious that moderates are not radicalised.
Yes if everything is observed holistically and in its rightful context it is a religion of peace.

I linked this video two pages ago, I doesn't represent my opinion/view on the matter, but I think it raises some valid points (the statistics part):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7TAAw3oQvg
Can you remind me to watch this later?
Yes, there is the KKK, and other radicals (Crusades is the commonly quoted example); there are also non-religious groups who have committed terrible deeds (example under Germany's regime, Soviet Russia, Mao etc.)

The difference is two things:
1. The number of people (the KKK is about 8000 is the US, while 'Muslim' radicals are about 270,000 milllion or 15-20% estimated by intelligence data)
2. Whether their beliefs match up with their teachings in their authoritative source i.e. Bible or Quran (KKK is obviously not, Muslims will have defend/argue likewise that ISIS is not; which I wouldn't comment on further)
Why are you listing only a specific group of Christian radicals and then listing the supposed statistic for Muslims in the whole world? Where did you even get this statistic from? How did they define radicals? And yes ISIS does not represent ISLAM as it doesn't conform to the teachings of the QURAN.

The reason I can make these claims, because Mormons also claim to be Christians, as do JWs; and from (2) their teachings do not match up...
Likewise for KKK. (Don't know much about IRA)
Just like ISIS claims to be Muslims.
 

Drsoccerball

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On second thoughts you didn't actually address what I said in full.
"Muslims need to not ask for special privileges. Yes hate, is a bad thing. But telling people not to examine what Islam teaches, to see if actually is as liberals/Obama claim "a religion of peace" is uncritical. " And how do we find that out? Well, the Quran firstly (and Haddiths* *filtered through Quran).

So that is what I am hinting at, not that Muslims are radical; but whether Islam itself. I know in Christianity, being conservative doesn't mean you are extreme (despite what some people think), but the question we has to ask is Islam similar in this respect.
Ill reply to the longer messages soon but from the Quran in its context it does not teach violence. Ill explain in abit.
 

Drsoccerball

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Yes and no.
I don't mind provided there is justification
I am kind of used to seeing it.
No, in the sense that criticism doesn't necessitate critical thinking.
Criticism allows me to consider things I would usually not consider.
 

Drsoccerball

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and there is this one from Surah 9:29-31
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah"; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded? They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him." -

and this entire thread...
http://community.boredofstudies.org...604/thread-islam-sceptics-sympathisers-1.html
Ive explained this 4 times to you ...
 

Drsoccerball

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Surah 9, for a bit more context.
=====
1. [This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.
2. So travel freely, [O disbelievers], throughout the land [during] four months but know that you cannot cause failure to Allah and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.
3. And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah . And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment.
4. Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].
5. And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
6. And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.
7. How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].
8. How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient.
9. They have exchanged the signs of Allah for a small price and averted [people] from His way. Indeed, it was evil that they were doing.
10. They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection. And it is they who are the transgressors.
11. But if they repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, then they are your brothers in religion; and We detail the verses for a people who know.
12. And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease.
13. Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.
14. Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people
15. And remove the fury in the believers' hearts. And Allah turns in forgiveness to whom He wills; and Allah is Knowing and Wise.
16. Do you think that you will be left [as you are] while Allah has not yet made evident those among you who strive [for His cause] and do not take other than Allah , His Messenger and the believers as intimates? And Allah is Acquainted with what you do.
17. It is not for the polytheists to maintain the mosques of Allah [while] witnessing against themselves with disbelief. [For] those, their deeds have become worthless, and in the Fire they will abide eternally.
18. The mosques of Allah are only to be maintained by those who believe in Allah and the Last Day and establish prayer and give zakah and do not fear except Allah , for it is expected that those will be of the [rightly] guided.
19. Have you made the providing of water for the pilgrim and the maintenance of al-Masjid al-Haram equal to [the deeds of] one who believes in Allah and the Last Day and strives in the cause of Allah ? They are not equal in the sight of Allah . And Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.
20. The ones who have believed, emigrated and striven in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives are greater in rank in the sight of Allah . And it is those who are the attainers [of success].
21. Their Lord gives them good tidings of mercy from Him and approval and of gardens for them wherein is enduring pleasure.
22. [They will be] abiding therein forever. Indeed, Allah has with Him a great reward.
23. O you who have believed, do not take your fathers or your brothers as allies if they have preferred disbelief over belief. And whoever does so among you - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.
24. Say, [O Muhammad], "If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your relatives, wealth which you have obtained, commerce wherein you fear decline, and dwellings with which you are pleased are more beloved to you than Allah and His Messenger and jihad in His cause, then wait until Allah executes His command. And Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people."
25. Allah has already given you victory in many regions and [even] on the day of Hunayn, when your great number pleased you, but it did not avail you at all, and the earth was confining for you with its vastness; then you turned back, fleeing.
26. Then Allah sent down His tranquillity upon His Messenger and upon the believers and sent down soldiers angels whom you did not see and punished those who disbelieved. And that is the recompense of the disbelievers.
27. Then Allah will accept repentance after that for whom He wills; and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
28. O you who have believed, indeed the polytheists are unclean, so let them not approach al-Masjid al-Haram after this, their [final] year. And if you fear privation, Allah will enrich you from His bounty if He wills. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Wise.
29. Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.
30. The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?
31. They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.
32. They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it.
33. It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it.
34. O you who have believed, indeed many of the scholars and the monks devour the wealth of people unjustly and avert [them] from the way of Allah . And those who hoard gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah - give them tidings of a painful punishment.
35. The Day when it will be heated in the fire of Hell and seared therewith will be their foreheads, their flanks, and their backs, [it will be said], "This is what you hoarded for yourselves, so taste what you used to hoard."
...
Do you know when this verse/surah was revealed? There was a peace treaty between Mecca and Medina. This treaty stated that any one who kills a member of the other nation would cause the treaty to be broken, They cannot sabotage any caravans coming in or out of each city, They were allowed to do hajj but only 3 days of the whole year etc...and the condition was they can't do Hajj that year and if any of that was broken the treaty would also break. Imagine that... walking for days/weeks and they tell you to go back... At that time they had the physical power to conquer Mecca but what did the prophet (Sas) do? He avoided war and agreed upon the treaty. What verse was revealed at that moment? "Ina fatha na laka fath ham mu bina" Surely we have given to you a clear victory. This surah Tauuba meaning repentance was revealed when the disbelievers slaughtered all the people in a muslim carivan and thus broke the treaty. So some of this surah was revealed as they broke the treaty and that is when they conquered Mecca. Without any bloodshed mind you(and if he did there would of been records of it)... And the people who fought against the prophet before asked what he was going to do to them and he said something like "forgive" or something like that...Now if we consider that he would never go against the Quranic teachings does that mean Islam encourages violence? Okay lets assume that verse wasnt revealed before then.

Verse 5 - Exactly why context means everything. In a time of war there is nothing wrong with saying kill them where you find them but look at the next verse " If any seek your protection than give it to him" What's this trying to say? Its trying to say only kill those that refuse to stop fighting... Because it is always encouraged by the prophet (sas) to avoid fighting except when it must be done otherwise there will be alot of dead muslims. Is it really peaceful to allow someone to invade and kill all your men and children, rape your wives and daughters ? Of course not. But again you will ask "Well why would they declare war in the first place" Those times differ as if there wasn't a treaty nations would assume they are at war with each other... This is clearly different to today's context where if there is no treaty it is still assumed that we are at peace with each other...


All these were revealed only when they were at War not when they had peace treaties which is very important to note.

Also for "May Allah destroy them" that is a matter between you and God no one can force you to become Muslim as hypocrisy would arise and we know that is worse than disbelief...

I hope this made sense to you.
 

Drsoccerball

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this video...
Literally this thread has "Muslims" in it but I doubt this is what you were referring to. Again these radicals don't represent the teachings of Islam...So how can we call them Muslim ? KKK doesn't represent Christianity so how can we call them Christians etc... They use Islamic texts out of context to justify their actions... Deja vu... It feels like I've said this 5 times?
 

Drsoccerball

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I think you guys should sit down and read the Quran rather than just looking for invalid ways to prove it wrong from the internet AT LEAST read it whole and then criticise it...
 

dan964

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if everything is observed holistically and in its rightful context it is a religion of peace.
Evidence?
 

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