Muslim headscarves (4 Viewers)

[malkin86]

I was talking about this with a bloke today, and it's not just the Muslim women and their headgear that is frowned upon - he says that he saw a bloke try to walk into the RSL wearing the sikh headdress . He was refused entry. In his culture, wearing the headdress is a sign of respect - in ours, wearing headgear inside is a sign of disrespect. It was solved by someone buying him a beer, and he sat outside and drank it there, with his headdress.

 

[soha]

why ban something that makes women feel wonderful
they feel respected and equal..they are lifted and feel secure
they feel free and happy..

why would you wnat to take that away from someone for no good reason?
i know all my friends..my mum my sister..my class mates..my teachers..everyone who wears the scalf that i know tells me how beautiful they feel
(and how i should wear it too)..coz i dont as yet

but neways..there is soo much more to hejab than just a piece of material wrapped around your head
its deeper then that..and you'd have to wear it to understand..you'd have to feel it..and believe it and experience it..and maybe im making it sound like the most precious thing in the world
well it protects and covers what i believe is the most precious thing in the world..and thats women..more precious then your jewels..and your gold and your money
you would cover them to keep them save and hidden..so its the same concept really...

 

[MoonlightSonata]

I was talking about this with a bloke today, and it's not just the Muslim women and their headgear that is frowned upon - he says that he saw a bloke try to walk into the RSL wearing the sikh headdress . He was refused entry. In his culture, wearing the headdress is a sign of respect - in ours, wearing headgear inside is a sign of disrespect. It was solved by someone buying him a beer, and he sat outside and drank it there, with his headdress.

I wonder if that constitutes discrimination...

 

[soha]

I wonder if that constitutes discrimination...

i would be outraged
i wouldnt just sit outside and drink a beer
i would kick up a stink
i dont think thats fair at all

 

[MoonlightSonata]

why ban something that makes women feel wonderful
they feel respected and equal..they are lifted and feel secure
they feel free and happy..

why would you wnat to take that away from someone for no good reason?
i know all my friends..my mum my sister..my class mates..my teachers..everyone who wears the scalf that i know tells me how beautiful they feel
(and how i should wear it too)..coz i dont as yet

but neways..there is soo much more to hejab than just a piece of material wrapped around your head
its deeper then that..and you'd have to wear it to understand..you'd have to feel it..and believe it and experience it..and maybe im making it sound like the most precious thing in the world
well it protects and covers what i believe is the most precious thing in the world..and thats women..more precious then your jewels..and your gold and your money
you would cover them to keep them save and hidden..so its the same concept really...

People can be made to feel anything with conditioning. It doesn't mean it is healthy or respectful. There really is no rational point behind it, in my opinion. It is anachronistic and ought to go -- just by the communities themselves, not by the law.

As I say, there is little rational force behind a number of religious curiosities. It doesn't mean we ban them.

 

[malkin86]

I wonder if that constitutes discrimination...

I gather that the policy would be similar to 'no shoes, no shirt, no service'.


I think that just from a slip-slop-slap point of view, at least they've got something on their heads, unlike the other Australian girls (and boys).

 

[radhika87]

Mate this is a Christian country. You can take your mongrel race religion back to your own country thanks.

Why don't you just shut the fuck up!
This is not a fukn Christian country, its a tolerant country and i suggest if your a racist prick then fuk off.
u don't deserve to be freely living in this beautiful nation which accepts all cultures, religions and traditions.
Nadia88 is not a terrorist sypathiser, but rather a young person who is able to express their views
U obvioulsy are an uneducated dickhead who has no right to be saying the bullshit that is coming out in all your posts anyway.

 

[ishq]

I think that just from a slip-slop-slap point of view, at least they've got something on their heads, unlike the other Australian girls (and boys).

Good Point

 

[Comrade nathan]

I would only support it if the motives were to make all religion a private matter. However the reasons behind banning the headscarves are just more Muslim hysteria.

 

[monkeyface]

And correct me if I am wrong, but don't all female toursit in Iran have to wear a hejab in public? Hmmmm, that seems unfair.

They wear it for their own protection, or else they'd probably get jumped.

 

[manifestation]

The strongest point in this argument is that it is harmful to the women who wear it because it acts as a repressive device in those cultures.

But have any women actually spoken out who wear the Hijab that it is harming them, do they have a problem with wearing it? Do they feel oppressed? I mean wouldn't this move to ban the headscarf cause more of an outcry from the muslim community and provoke more hatred against everyone?

I mean the hijab isn't there to oppress, like i said before you have to understand the reason and then draw conclusions.

It's just so sad to see such small matters causing so much hatred. There was a time where people use to be able to live next to each other, be kind to their neighbours and live peacefully without declaring differences. Now even your neighbours appearance wages a war...

 

[Sepulchres]

The strongest point in this argument is that it is harmful to the women who wear it because it acts as a repressive device in those cultures.

I would really like to know the basis of this arguement. I find it incredibly ironical that you say "it acts as a repressive device for women" when muslim women (who are much more experienced with the wearing of the hijab than you will ever be) argue against that very point. Who are you to say that it will "liberate" (what an oarsome word) women when the women who you want to "liberate" do no want to be "liberated."

I agree wholeheartedly, and the contentious issue in this debate is that last part, "if it is not conflicting with the operations of society". In my opinion, based upon the evidence so far, it is not. I would like to see more women's perspectives however. It is troubling because the leaders of these communities are men. It is dubious that women are really heard in expressing themselves on the issue.
The issue is not merely about trying to maintain pure "Western ideals" per se. The argument is based upon equality. It is true that equality might be seen to be a Western ideal, but it happens to be one that I think we must uphold. I don't think many people would be successful in arguing that equality is of its nature a bad thing. So the issue is (or should be) about equality.

This is also crap. Muslim women will not feel "equal" if the hijab is banned. Go out on the streets today and do a survey for yourself. Pick out women who wear the hijab and ask them "Will you feel liberated if we ban the hijab?" I can guarantee that ~100% will say no. So ask yourself buddy, who are you trying to impose liberty to? Do they want "liberty?" Or "equality" perhaps?

 

[waddle_828]

i don't think it should be banned for the idea of liberation etc

i have muslim friends at my school and they don't wear the headscarf except for when they go to mosque, and it is their choice, if they don't want to wear it they don't have to, which is what the quran says, though i think it also says wearing the headscarf is meant to be liberating, which i don't know how thaty works, but thats what i heard of someone

 

[Minai]

I heard that you get arrested if you don't wear one. But I could be wrong here. I should probably do some research.

Well in Iran, you could be stoned (sometimes to death) in public.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

I would really like to know the basis of this arguement. I find it incredibly ironical that you say "it acts as a repressive device for women" when muslim women (who are much more experienced with the wearing of the hijab than you will ever be) argue against that very point.

Firstly, whether they feel repressed and whether they are repressed are two different things. As I mentioned, people can be conditioned to feel certain ways which may not be fair or equal. It does not mean that it is respectful, equal or free. Equality is objective. The fact of the existence of equality doesn't go up in smoke when a group of people are brought up thinking differently.

Secondly, simply because some women don't want it removed does not mean that all of them do not. As I mentioned, I would like to see some real evidence in large samples of the way Muslim women think about the issue. The leaders of their communities are men - so it is hardly the case that their views are going to be openly expressed.

These arguments about fear are not without substantiation. I refer you to an interview on ABC's Lateline with Muslim author, journalist, and activist Irshad Manji. Manji has been a vocal critic of Islam, especially the treatment of women, gays, lesbians and Jews by some Muslims. She does not wear the hijab or chador, interpreting the requirement to apply only to the wives of Muhammad.

IRSHAD MANJI: Well, I think that the challenge here is actually to reach an emerging generation of Muslims and I can tell you, I now go around the world talking about the need for a liberal reformation of Islam, and easily, Tony, the most support that I get for this message comes from young Muslims, who are sick and tired of their madrasa teachers, their Islamic religious school teachers, their imams, selecting verses from the Koran that are retrograde and negative whatever telling what there is to be proud about Islam, and not proud in an arrogant way, proud in a very, very positive sense.

And so I think that it's worthwhile for the Government of Australia to reach a new generation, but what they'll find when they do that, Tony, as I have found, is that this generation, while very reform-minded, is scared. They are scared not so much of the rhetorical persecution that I referred to earlier, being called names such as self-loathing Muslims or racist, they are scared of something even more concrete, and that is physical violence against themselves and their families from fellow Muslims.

TONY JONES: That's such an extraordinary thing you have just told us. Did you have that experience of people coming up and saying that in more than one place in Australia?

IRSHAD MANJI: Oh, yes, more than one place in Australia, but also, Tony, more than one place in cities throughout the West, and this is something that I think we only really attribute to the relatively closed societies of the Middle East, but I can tell you that that fear of retaliation and keep in mind, not from the Government, but from other community members, is deep among Muslims.

TONY JONES: They weren't fearing from their own family members, you're saying this is from thugs in the community?

IRSHAD MANJI: That's right.

[http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2005/s1443671.htm]

True, I am not personally very familiar with attitudes of women in Muslim communities. However do some research and you will find that this woman is a little more aware of the perspectives of Muslims around the world than you.

Thirdly, as a fusion of my previous two points, the source behind their motivation for expressing views to the effect of "keep the hijab" may stem from an inability to freely determine their own perspectives through social and cultural conditioning, fear and religious mania -- factors which are male dominated and inhibit their opportunities to make free, informed decisions and also to express those decisions.

This is also crap. Muslim women will not feel "equal" if the hijab is banned. Go out on the streets today and do a survey for yourself. Pick out women who wear the hijab and ask them "Will you feel liberated if we ban the hijab?" I can guarantee that ~100% will say no. So ask yourself buddy, who are you trying to impose liberty to? Do they want "liberty?" Or "equality" perhaps?

Again, refer to my points above. Social and cultural repressive conditioning. Fear. Religious male-dominated guidance and mania. Of course a lot of them aren't going to say that.

Equality is a good thing, whether people are used to it or not.

 

[Sepulchres]

Irshad Manji is a lesbian, Islamic reformist who often tells ordinary Muslims to “crawl out of their narcissistic shell”. Her views reflects a minority of the muslim population.

And so I think that it's worthwhile for the Government of Australia to reach a new generation, but what they'll find when they do that, Tony, as I have found, is that this generation, while very reform-minded, is scared.

So her idea of "reform" is banning the headscarf? She is a differnt kind of extremist. She is an extreme reformist who dwells on the fact that Islam is out-dated. I take the point that the Quran must be read with the context of it in the back of the mind but reforming a religion is another matter. She's kidding herself if she thinks it can be done by banning the headscarf.

Firstly, whether they feel repressed and whether they are repressed are two different things. As I mentioned, people can be conditioned to feel certain ways which may not be fair or equal. It does not mean that it is respectful, equal or free. Equality is objective. The fact of the existence of equality doesn't go up in smoke when a group of people are brought up thinking differently.

Yea, I agree, though I'd use the term "conditioned" loosely. The fact that you tend to think that women are liberated, equal, free once the headscarf is banned may also be classified as a "conditioned" way of thinking. We are all conditioned in one way or another.

Secondly, simply because some women don't want it removed does not mean that all of them do not. As I mentioned, I would like to see some real evidence in large samples of the way Muslim women think about the issue. The leaders of their communities are men - so it is hardly the case that their views are going to be openly expressed.

I would too. Only then will you be truly convinced.

Again, refer to my points above. Social and cultural repressive conditioning. Fear. Religious male-dominated guidance and mania. Of course a lot of them aren't going to say that.

Why is it that you think, even in a western environment, that muslim women are bound by their male counterparts? I dont know if you have seen the news lately but Muslim women, in particular, have spoken out on this issue and all of them have disapproved the banning of the headscarf. I am yet to see a muslim woman, who is in the general community, who approves this ban. Irshad Manji is not one.

 

[supercharged]

So muslim women wear the headscarf the hide their hair for religious reasons, why not just shave the whole head bald so they don't need to even bother covering it with the headscarf anymore?

Getting rid of the offending hair alltogether seems like a better way.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Irshad Manji is a lesbian, Islamic reformist who often tells ordinary Muslims to “crawl out of their narcissistic shell”. Her views reflects a minority of the muslim population.

1. Yes I thought you'd try and put her into a little extremist box to write her off. (Fallacy: ad hominem.) Newsflash: the fact that she is a lesbian is completely irrelevant. Stick to the facts and her arguments.

2. Did you read what she said? The younger generation (ie. the generation that has less of the male-dominated religious control branded into their skulls) has been very receptive to reformist thinking such as hers. Her views do not reflect the older, conditioned, traditionally stubborn Muslim population, no. Ever consider that maybe they should?

So her idea of "reform" is banning the headscarf?

No. Read again, she never said that.

Yea, I agree, though I'd use the term "conditioned" loosely. The fact that you tend to think that women are liberated, equal, free once the headscarf is banned may also be classified as a "conditioned" way of thinking.

I never said or implied that (Fallacy: attacking the straw person.)

Secondly, simply because some women don't want it removed does not mean that all of them do not. As I mentioned, I would like to see some real evidence in large samples of the way Muslim women think about the issue. The leaders of their communities are men - so it is hardly the case that their views are going to be openly expressed.

I would too. Only then will you be truly convinced.

Forgive me if I think that your random word does not stack up very well against the statements on real, frequent, significant, global experiences and deliberate interactions/inquiries provided by Manji. And it seems you have ignored all that was said about the threats of violence and the fears of various more subtle retributive acts and repression on the part of the Muslim community.

Why is it that you think, even in a western environment, that muslim women are bound by their male counterparts? I dont know if you have seen the news lately but Muslim women, in particular, have spoken out on this issue and all of them have disapproved the banning of the headscarf. I am yet to see a muslim woman, who is in the general community, who approves this ban. Irshad Manji is not one.

Read what I write more carefully. I am against the ban.

 

[Comrade nathan]

And correct me if I am wrong, but don't all female toursit in Iran have to wear a hejab in public? Hmmmm, that seems unfair.

How does this have anything to do with headscarves in Australia?

 

[Sweets]

Irshad Manji is not a valid source. I mean she is I suppose if you consider the opinions of literate people who consistantly re-use the same idea over and over.

"The problem with Islamic thought," Irshad Manji argues, "is that it's constantly reproducing the same paradigms. We keep hearing the same damn thing from these mullahs. The mark of a so-so thinker is that she reproduces the same idea, over and over..." Hmmm....

I would respect her, if it seemed she had any integrity, but she seems to be just another publicity whore and she can't even write well.