Muslim People in Australia (7 Viewers)

[davin]

i'll have to review the examples, but for those that have practical applications but needed a level of science to figure out (i.e. not simple observation) i'd want proof that islamic areas were using the practical applications and the only means of knowing what they did was by an interpretation of the qur'an

 

[Not-That-Bright]

That's irrelevant .........the fact is that the Quran mentions it, which was revealed more than 1400 years. Scientists have no other option but to agree.

It's not irrelevant because we have no idea what it REALLY means, if we did then why aren't the islamic scholars telling us the scientific discoveries of the next 50 years? I'm sure in 50 years time there'll be some verse used to fit in with some scientific discovery, so why can't they just do it now?

Because MAYBE the verse at the moment has nothing to do with the science....

So yea, you say the Quran mentions it... that's your first mistake, the koran does not mention it, science comes up with it then magically something new is discovered about some verse...

u do realise, it is difficult to prove those scientific discoveries 1400 years ago.

So you believe that 1400 years ago they had more scientific knowledge than we do now, but simply were not able to prove it? or use it?

This is just silly. I mean come on HotShot, surely you know you could go back through some wordsworth poems and use some wild confabulation to say that he made some major scientific discovery, why the hell would I then believe that wordsworth actually knew something about that science?

You need to actually show that someone read the koran and got the idea from the koran, before anyone else, and come up with the scientific discovery....no speculating about 'well they did know but they couldn't prove it', I mean how exactly can we falsify what you say? we don't know what was in the minds of people reading the koran 1400 years ago, it's impossible to know, but I think it's fair that if the Koran has scientific knowledge in it that you should be able to point us to an example of a scientific discovery made directly by reading the koran and using it as their hypothesis.

The references to scientific principles in the Qur'an are vague; except those on meteorology; big bang theory; evolution and embryology.

No, the big bang theory was very vague... as was the evolution thing... I dunno what you said for meteorology (but often the stuff was either vague / a simple observation that everyone at the time would have made)... embryology, we've already discussed - remember how the greeks already knew about it?

The rest is sort of unclear... maybe because of the times? most of the words we have now are new; it would have been difficult explaining such things at that time.

Maybe because of the answers we gave you?

In the Qur'an it sais all those who are pure of heart will find islam; so theres no use in preaching; our religion doesn't ask us to preach our religion; except to those who are willing to learn. This thread could be though as a plea to learn; but we are in modern times there is infinite ammounts of resources to those who want to learn.

Um, well stop then? If you don't want to preach then stop...

The answers to life are constantly being explained; The truth is no one knows.

No one knows, but at the moment based on the facts we have established, it would appear that your religion is wrong. Perhaps, ultimately, in some way we are yet to understand, or by the magesty of some supernatural being, it is correct, but provisionally.. it is wrong.

Either way; i noticed the deeper you go into these questions; the colder it becomes.... with less answers.
It seems the only way man will reach the answers and understand them fully is by taking "slow", "steady" steps. So the ideas are more logical and factually based.

The deeper you go into these questions the more it shatters your religious framework, it's a scary thing to lose faith. Some priests whom have become atheists, have been scared that the devil is going to get them as their faith waivered... religion takes a firm grasp of people, the last strength of it being fear to subdue its worshippers.

So far though; there is no contradictions of science with islam.

Using your religious loosely based interpretations, people have found no contradictions in the bible, or the torah... *sigh*

 

[ur_inner_child]

the fact that the quran does not actually give people a true understanding about how the world works in a logical manner, but rather a brushing statement about the world, which happens to be true, is really saying something

There's no use saying "we were right, we got the idea first", its the logical process that goes into it that is science.

 

[HotShot]

the fact that the quran does not actually give people a true understanding about how the world works in a logical manner, but rather a brushing statement about the world, which happens to be true, is really saying something

There's no use saying "we were right, we got the idea first", its the logical process that goes into it that is science.

and thats why they claim that god exists, because god revealed to them these scientific 'discoveries'.

 

[Zayd]

It's not irrelevant because we have no idea what it REALLY means, if we did then why aren't the islamic scholars telling us the scientific discoveries of the next 50 years? I'm sure in 50 years time there'll be some verse used to fit in with some scientific discovery, so why can't they just do it now?

Because MAYBE the verse at the moment has nothing to do with the science....

So yea, you say the Quran mentions it... that's your first mistake, the koran does not mention it, science comes up with it then magically something new is discovered about some verse...



So you believe that 1400 years ago they had more scientific knowledge than we do now, but simply were not able to prove it? or use it?

This is just silly. I mean come on HotShot, surely you know you could go back through some wordsworth poems and use some wild confabulation to say that he made some major scientific discovery, why the hell would I then believe that wordsworth actually knew something about that science?

You need to actually show that someone read the koran and got the idea from the koran, before anyone else, and come up with the scientific discovery....no speculating about 'well they did know but they couldn't prove it', I mean how exactly can we falsify what you say? we don't know what was in the minds of people reading the koran 1400 years ago, it's impossible to know, but I think it's fair that if the Koran has scientific knowledge in it that you should be able to point us to an example of a scientific discovery made directly by reading the koran and using it as their hypothesis.

Everyone here is speaking on behalf of science even though none of us are scientists. why dont you go to the following site and listen to what "MAJOR SCIENTISTS" have said about the QURAN.

http://islamyesterday.com/science/ (and yes, i have provided this link before)

oh yeh and also this site: http://www.islam-guide.com/

 

[Not-That-Bright]

....

In Explorations: An undergraduate research journal, Regan Clarke reports religious belief and behavior were negatively correlated with SAT scores in the USA.[2] In 2000, noted skeptic Michael Shermer found a negative correlation between education and religosity in the United States, though Rice University indicates this may not apply to the social sciences.[3]

Several studies on Americans focus on the beliefs of high-IQ individuals. In one study, 90% of the general population surveyed professed a distinct belief in a personal god and afterlife, while only 40% of the scientists with a BS surveyed did so, and only 10% of those considered "eminent."[4]. Another study found that mathematicians were just over 40%, biologists just under 30%, and physicists were barely over 20% likely to believe in God.[5]

A survey of members of the United States National Academy of Sciences showed that 72% are outright atheists, 21% are agnostic and only 7% admit to belief in a personal God.[6]

The Pew Global Attitudes Project surveyed opinions by nation with the question "How important is religion in your life—very important, somewhat important, not too important, or not at all important?"[7] The report finds that Americans are much more religious than people living in other wealthy nations. In the U.S., 59% of people reported religion was "very important", as compared to 30% in Canada. In this way, the views of Americans are more simliar to people in developing countries than those in developed countries. The study found a correlation between the percentage of people reporting that religion was "very important" and the national per-capita GDP. It can be further stated that the nations who scored as most religious tended to have low science scores according to TIMSS.[8] Also an inverse correlation at Nationmaster can be found between mathematical literacy and church attendance[9]. (Although labor regulation and police per capita were far stronger inverse correlations) No significant inverse correlation showed up for scientific literacy[10] or reading literacy[11] however.

Scientists... on the whole (not social scientists) are overwhelmingly atheist/agnostic. I didn't bother to click your link, but I'm aware that there are some scientists that believe in Islam... so what?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

and thats why they claim that god exists, because god revealed to them these scientific 'discoveries'.

Can you please go back a page, I edited what I wrote to address you.

 

[davin]

Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?... (Quran, 21:30)

The fourth view is the relatively late myth of Pangu. This was an explanation offered by Taoist monks hundreds of years after Laozi; probably around 200 CE. In this story, the universe begins as a cosmic egg. A god named Pangu, born inside the egg, broke it into two halves: The upper half became the sky, the lower half became the earth.

so....aren't these two effectivly the same? one thing being broken apart to form the heavens and the earth as two pieces?

 

[sam04u]

Re: NTB

Dude, im not preaching; i just don't the final conclusion to be "islam is wrong" which is an incorrect statement.
Also the question of the existance of the universe have nothing to do with faith. Also there is future predictions which are in the qur'an;

Re: Davin;

Remember a few pages ago? i explained the "heavens" does not mean the Sky or "heaven" it is refering to space;

Sky has its own word in arabic;
So does HEAVEN;

The words heavens best describes not on earth; I provided evidence of this;

One statement is after the universe was seperated from the heap; (not an egg) Space and Earth was RIPPED apart; And is constantly growing. [ all of which was logical and not vague ] Then it said life was "spread" throughout the "heavens and earth";
Meaning there is life elsewhere;

Davin argued (maybe it meant life on heaven?)

I said "heaven" has a different word.

So there is 4 predictions/statements made over 1400 years ago; all of which in no way was known by anyone on earth as a single person; Maybe single ideas from all parts of the word were known; but not on the stages of embryology or the detail of the Explosion;

Anyways the scientific arguments are of little relevance except to those who have no faith in religion and think that islam is contradictory to science (which so far it isn't however vague the translated statements may be to the simple man [such as yourself] there is reference to them.)

Now here is some science for you agnostics;

The earths life is about 5 billion years; for proper evolution to take place through life and such. There should be factors which take upto 7-8 Billion years to actually take place; eg: (Nucleic Acid; CO2; O2; H20 etc
So it is confusing to most scientists who know this information how life can be existant on earth at such an early phase;

They say perhaps;

• Life Travelled on the inside of a Meteor?
• Perhaps Life was brought from another Planet?
• Maybe something brought life to earth?

Here are my answers to this;
1. Life couldnt survive the radiation in space in a meteor; no proper protection.
2 & 3. Precisely; Noahs ark could be a metaphor?
The ship could refer to a "space ship"?
2 Of each animal; "Could refer to the D.N.A of 2 of each animal"
Storm & Rain; "Meteor Storm, EMW Rain."
40 Days; 40 x 50, 000 = 200,000 :wave:

Either way; the Qur'an explains how earth could be on earth at such an early phase... Can you?

(See thats another prediction; That science doesn't explain; explained over 2000 years ago.)

Either way there is more ambiguity in this subject then any other; and it has driven millions to find answers.

The best answer i can find is; Made by these conclusions i have discovered on Earth.

1. Nothing is unexpected; all the answers can be found with understanding.
2. The more you understand; the Less you know.
3. The further you go into this subject; answers are worth less.
4. Man is rare; out of 400,000,000,000 Species which have lived on earth; Man (Aka the "Homosapien" species) is the only one which has displayed intelligence or has perceived the universe the way we have. (Don't you think the evolution of intelligence would have taken place first? Not just... BANG the next species in this chain will be intelligent beyond comprehension to its ancestors.

(Don't use the whole; GORILLAS are SMART theory.... I know they have limited intelligence; but in comparison to Humans they are.... Insignificant.)

Either way you look at it; science will always have these questions. These answers are in Islam which is 1400 Years old. So you cant argue "It was just the best conclusion man could come up with at that time."
Because it will always be the best; as it is right. And was not a conclusion by man.

However hard it may be to believe our feeble minded ancestors over 2000 Years ago knew the answers we don't know now. It is true....
It's just now we can prove it.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Dude, im not preaching; i just don't the final conclusion to be "islam is wrong" which is an incorrect statement.

Well then you're preaching, aren't you? Unless you can explain to me why you defending your faith is not preaching... (speak, plead, or argue in favour of I am preaching the message that God does not exist and all religions are wrong.

Also the question of the existance of the universe have nothing to do with faith. Also there is future predictions which are in the qur'an;

Of the existance of the universe? Huh?

I'm aware of future predictions, but alot of people make wild vague future predictions, if they happen to come true does that mean the person was a prophet? NO.

Remember a few pages ago? i explained the "heavens" does not mean the Sky or "heaven" it is refering to space;

Sky has its own word in arabic;
So does HEAVEN;

The words heavens best describes not on earth; I provided evidence of this;

One statement is after the universe was seperated from the heap; (not an egg) Space and Earth was RIPPED apart; And is constantly growing. [ all of which was logical and not vague ] Then it said life was "spread" throughout the "heavens and earth";

Sam04u: What you have to understand is his point... his point is that there are alot of pagan stories about a rip that occured which created the sky and the earth, millions of them, now the story in the koran seems very similar to them... why are we to just believe your interpretation when there's a much more logical answer? Especially in light of the fact that people only realised this is what it meant... AFTER THE FACT.

So there is 4 predictions/statements made over 1400 years ago; all of which in no way was known by anyone on earth as a single person; Maybe single ideas from all parts of the word were known; but not on the stages of embryology or the detail of the Explosion;

- There are these predictions, they ARE vague ones, made by THOUSANDS of seers, holy men, psychics, prophets, dickheads throughout all of history... are you telling us they're all correct? or only the muslim ones?

- We can look at how these stories have evolved from pagan myths to the religious stories of today...

- We can point to the fact that all of these discoveries where they were done without outside knowledge (embryology being an example where it was already known), weren't revealed to be so UNTIL SCIENTISTS DISCOVERED THE FACT.

- You are wrong.

Anyways the scientific arguments are of little relevance except to those who have no faith in religion and think that islam is contradictory to science (which so far it isn't however vague the translated statements may be to the simple man [such as yourself] there is reference to them.)

Scientific arguments are of big relevance to you, if they were not you would not be arguing against us. As for us being 'simple men' who can't understand what they are supposed to mean, can you just retract that right now? That's one of the single most bigoted sentences I've ever seen.... The reason why I don't believe you, and I think the statements are vague, is because I'm too simple? Fuck you.

The earths life is about 5 billion years; for proper evolution to take place through life and such. There should be factors which take upto 7-8 Billion years to actually take place; eg: (Nucleic Acid; CO2; O2; H20 etc

Actually, from many separate and independant lines of inquiry... the age of the earth of 5 billion years not only seem very logical to evolutionists, but it makes sense to geologists, paleontologists, and many others... So, basically ... no. Of course however there are gaps in our knowledge, we don't know everything about how the earth was formed... but we're using the best theories we have come up with. The 'god' hypothesis is null to begin with, it's like a 'LOL A MAGICAL BEANSTALK CREATED THE UNIVERSE' theory - they are exactly equal - positing a supernatural being as a theory is ridiculous because it cannot be falsified... there is not one piece of evidence we could ever find that would disprove the 'supernatural being' theory, because they're supernatural.

Here are my answers to this;
1. Life couldnt survive the radiation in space in a meteor; no proper protection.

Well I think you're misunderstanding bacteria, but still I don't think you quite get what we mean. It's that the building blocks of life, minerals/water, were transported to earth... they created a suitable atmosphere, the rain on the rocks created amino acids... life began.

The amino acid experiment has been repeated many times, of course we've never actually created a single celled organsim... but we have only been doing this for like 60 years. The interesting thing about it is that it fits in perfectly with what other scientists had been saying about early earth's atmosphere... see the amino acids can not form in our oxygen rich atmosphere, however they can in exactly the sort of atmosphere it is believed earth had in its early days - see... more of the converging evidence from separate, independant lines of inquiry.

Either way; the Qur'an explains how earth could be on earth at such an early phase... Can you?

What?

If you're saying 'lolz how can you explain life on earth years ago!' then I just did... to your 'well the koran has an answer', the korans answer is one of a supernatural power... I dunno how many times we've explained how that is not a good enough answer.

(See thats another prediction; That science doesn't explain; explained over 2000 years ago.)

lol this is so silly... We should just give up cancer research right now, because I can come up with a perfectly good answer - God is giving people cancer! Yay, no more research fellas.

1. Nothing is unexpected; all the answers can be found with understanding.
2. The more you understand; the Less you know.
3. The further you go into this subject; answers are worth less.

See, while agnostics/atheists acknowledge that we can't know everything and that nothing is certain... this is where we fall back on provisional truths, which i've explained 10,000 times but you lazy bastards don't seem to have picked it up yet.

4. Man is rare; out of 400,000,000,000 Species which have lived on earth; Man (Aka the "Homosapien" species) is the only one which has displayed intelligence or has perceived the universe the way we have. (Don't you think the evolution of intelligence would have taken place first? Not just... BANG the next species in this chain will be intelligent beyond comprehension to its ancestors.

Um... what about neanderthalls? or those midget guys they found in indonesia... they both displayed intelligence close/equal to that of man. The only people who say it was 'BANG' are the creationists, we (non-religious/liberal-religious) believe intelligence was a slow evolutionary process...

Either way you look at it; science will always have these questions. These answers are in Islam which is 1400 Years old. So you cant argue "It was just the best conclusion man could come up with at that time."

Yes, science isn't a religious dogma. The answer Islam provides is pathetic, a supernatural power did it? Do you watch the simpsons? Have you seen that episode where the nerds are asking Xena about some problems is a scripts plot, and she goes 'A wizard did it.' ... it's the EXACT same thing!

However hard it may be to believe our feeble minded ancestors over 2000 Years ago knew the answers we don't know now. It is true....

"Errr... Ummmm It is true! Because I say so! Muahahaha"

Idiot.

It's just now we can prove it.

We're not asking for evidence that muslims had proven these things (tho that would be nice) to even see the hypothesis's appearing would be good enough for me - BUT WE DON'T!

 

[davin]

Re: Davin;

Remember a few pages ago? i explained the "heavens" does not mean the Sky or "heaven" it is refering to space;

Sky has its own word in arabic;
So does HEAVEN;

The words heavens best describes not on earth; I provided evidence of this;

One statement is after the universe was seperated from the heap; (not an egg) Space and Earth was RIPPED apart; And is constantly growing. [ all of which was logical and not vague ] Then it said life was "spread" throughout the "heavens and earth";
Meaning there is life elsewhere;

Davin argued (maybe it meant life on heaven?)

I said "heaven" has a different word.

So there is 4 predictions/statements made over 1400 years ago; all of which in no way was known by anyone on earth as a single person; Maybe single ideas from all parts of the word were known; but not on the stages of embryology or the detail of the Explosion;

aside from that the two elements of Earth and space were never ripped apart in the past, then I'll also ask this....if the word used for heavens really means space, and heaven had a seperate word, then WHY is it translated as heavens? shouldn't it translate to space then?

Anyways the scientific arguments are of little relevance except to those who have no faith in religion and think that islam is contradictory to science (which so far it isn't however vague the translated statements may be to the simple man [such as yourself] there is reference to them.)

yeah, and people say nostradamous predicted virtually every future event and charles manson thought the beatles were telling him the future in how their songs were to be interpretted

Now here is some science for you agnostics;

The earths life is about 5 billion years; for proper evolution to take place through life and such. There should be factors which take upto 7-8 Billion years to actually take place; eg: (Nucleic Acid; CO2; O2; H20 etc
So it is confusing to most scientists who know this information how life can be existant on earth at such an early phase;

what do you mean there should be factors which take up to 7-8 billion years? evolutional theory is possible in the time frame that we had for it to take place, so i'm not sure what you're trying to claim there.

They say perhaps;

• Life Travelled on the inside of a Meteor?
• Perhaps Life was brought from another Planet?
• Maybe something brought life to earth?

Here are my answers to this;
1. Life couldnt survive the radiation in space in a meteor; no proper protection.
2 & 3. Precisely; Noahs ark could be a metaphor?
The ship could refer to a "space ship"?
2 Of each animal; "Could refer to the D.N.A of 2 of each animal"
Storm & Rain; "Meteor Storm, EMW Rain."
40 Days; 40 x 50, 000 = 200,000 :wave:

firstly, life could survive the radition of space just fine, at a minimum basic life.
as for the rest of your points, you're reinterpretting thigns now..... you're spinning it to fit new science again. which is exactly the point.... if the Qur'an is clear, then in NO WAY could Noah's Ark be a meteor, because it was already interpretted as an ark. You can't play a game of "well, some stuff is metaphor and some stuff isn't, but we get to decide what is which and when"

4. Man is rare; out of 400,000,000,000 Species which have lived on earth; Man (Aka the "Homosapien" species) is the only one which has displayed intelligence or has perceived the universe the way we have. (Don't you think the evolution of intelligence would have taken place first? Not just... BANG the next species in this chain will be intelligent beyond comprehension to its ancestors.

(Don't use the whole; GORILLAS are SMART theory.... I know they have limited intelligence; but in comparison to Humans they are.... Insignificant.)

exactly, we're smarter than primates, primates are smarter than other mammals, and so on. There's a few different primate species that can learn to communicate using lanugage with us, so that at least is some indication of intelligence. They are not on the same level as humans, but thats because we EVOLVED and got smarter than them.

 

[HotShot]

So you believe that 1400 years ago they had more scientific knowledge than we do now, but simply were not able to prove it? or use it?

No actually, i meant that they had jackshit knowledge of science. i am suggesting these 'scientific discoveries' were not discoverd by men, but revealed by god through the quran. Because i dont think muslims understood or interpretted that way back then.

This is just silly. I mean come on HotShot, surely you know you could go back through some wordsworth poems and use some wild confabulation to say that he made some major scientific discovery, why the hell would I then believe that wordsworth actually knew something about that science?

perhaps, i am just trying to come up with some ideas.

You need to actually show that someone read the koran and got the idea from the koran, before anyone else, and come up with the scientific discovery....no speculating about 'well they did know but they couldn't prove it', I mean how exactly can we falsify what you say? we don't know what was in the minds of people reading the koran 1400 years ago, it's impossible to know, but I think it's fair that if the Koran has scientific knowledge in it that you should be able to point us to an example of a scientific discovery made directly by reading the koran and using it as their hypothesis.

I swear this has been discussed before in the forums, and funnily it was.involving me. i have heard of some scientists using the some parts of koran as a hypothesis that have later been proven. 'heard'.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

i am suggesting these 'scientific discoveries' were not discoverd by men, but revealed by god through the quran. Because i dont think muslims understood or interpretted that way back then.

Yea and I'm saying that's silly because it's after the fact.

perhaps, i am just trying to come up with some ideas.

Yea ok, well don't come up with such silly ideas?

i have heard of some scientists using the some parts of koran as a hypothesis that have later been proven. 'heard'.

Um ok, examples?

 

[ogmzergrush]

perhaps, i am just trying to come up with some ideas.

A noble endeavour, keep trying son.

 

[HotShot]

Yea and I'm saying that's silly because it's after the fact.

i dont think u can prove that...

 

[Not-That-Bright]

What? I can't prove that god didn't have any involvement? Of course not, but you can't prove that a magical version of batman didn't have involvement either... when you're dealing with supernatural things you can't falsify them.

 

[sam04u]

What? I can't prove that god didn't have any involvement? Of course not, but you can't prove that a magical version of batman didn't have involvement either... when you're dealing with supernatural things you can't falsify them.

You're an idiot.
Join these forums then you have the right to argue with me.
www.highiqsociety.com;

 

[davin]

then again, you also tried to reinterpret noah's ark to better match more recent science even though hundreds of years ago it was taken to mean just a boat and nothing more, without explaining how its ok to reinterpret while also arguing that obviously the qur'an is so clear that its always been interpretted the same way and it couldn't possibly people putting spin on passages from it with the intent of making it seem to match up with science, could it?

related, i did hear someone make the exact same arguement on the radio the other day, but about christianity

 

[Not-That-Bright]

You're an idiot.
Join these forums then you have the right to argue with me.
www.highiqsociety.com;

Sorry! I didn't know a simpleton like me wasn't allowed to argue with you

 

[davin]

important question.... not-that-bright, are you smart enough to spend $80 to have a website tell you you're smart?

secondary offer, i'll do it for $20