Obama Addresses the Middle East (2 Viewers)

[A High Way Man]

good work barry, now for final movement in ur concert, ...

 

[zazzy1234]

good work barry, now for final movement in ur concert, ...

what r u on about?

 

[JonathanM]

True. I acknowledge this. Newbies to the ongoing debate over this issue here at BoS would be well served to take a cursory glance at past threads. I advocate a two state solution. I support it. I do not suggest uprooting five year old children who have a fair authority to claim Israel as their home as much as Arab children. Issue is the division of Israel which is currently grossly unfair. So what we have is as follows:

~2,500,000 West Bank Arabs + 1,500,000 Gaza Strip Arabs + several millions displaced Arabs who have a greater historical claim owing to their ownership of the land prior to the Jewish invasion
~7,500,000 Israelis, several million of whom are Arab, who do not have a greater historical claim to the land as they, more or less, are an introduced species.

I argue that Arabs have a greater claim to the land. Therefore, within reason, they should receive more than their fair share of the land of Israel. West Bank + Golan Heights + East Jerusalem + Gaza + a little extra ought to be theirs. The Jews should more or less be entitled to everything else, so far as I can see.

Summary: Arabs deserve more than what they originally received.

Agreed with most of that. I can't see how 3 million + people living in Gaza is fair. We must also keep in mind that most of Israel, like the Negev is uninhabitable, despite Israel's attempts to 'green' it up. I agree that West Bank, Gaza should be given to the Palestinians, however I think East Jerusalem should be an international zone, controlled by a third party (as was originally set out in the British 1947 partition plan), so as to avoid conflicts. I do not agree with the Golan Heights becoming part of a Palestinian state. The Palestinians have no claim on it, it was taken over from the Syrians in the six day war and it is simply impossible for Israel to hand it over, not only because of the strategic vulnerability such a move would lend itself to, but also because of the priceless water supplies the Heights give to Israel (supplies 15% of Israel's water).

You're trying to equate the two sides. This is not permissible. Admit that Israel is the aggressor or I'll be forced to pull statistics.

Hrmm, I'm willing to concede that Israel's 'terrible things' vastly outweigh those of the Palestinians, particularly Hamas, I know the statistics are not on my side, the simple result of a vastly superior military foe. But I will not concede this; moral responsibility cannot be divided. Israel is not 30% morally wrong and the Palestinians 70%, or vice versa. It is 50/50, both have committed terrible things and both are in the red, no matter what the extent of the misdeeds are. A serial killer and a murderer are to be similarly condemned morally, though the serial killer has committed the greater crime.

Don't compare Australia to Israel. Other than that, I don't quite understand the significance of your point.

I was not comparing Israel to the Australia of today, but to the Australia which adhered to the White Australia Policy (till 1973). My point is that Israel did not introduce attempting to keep an ethnic majority, it has been practiced throughout history and although in many cases it has been racially discriminated against the minorities, it is a valid excercise. What point is there for all this suffering, death and angst if Israel loses its Jewish majority? The idea of Israel in the first place was for it to be a Jewish state, where Jews could be free of the scourge of anti-Semitism, and there would have been no point to all this if it loses its Jewish majority.

See, an analogy should probably have some relevance to real life. Here's a better one:

When you keep a HUMAN in a cage, it will do everything you said. IN THAT CASE THE IMPRISONED HUMAN HAS EVERY RIGHT TO SEEK VENGEANCE (through legal means, of course).

What a fucking rotten example.

Shit analogy, point taken. I suck at giving analogies. The message I was trying to give was that Israel, (prior to the most recent election, it's in war mode now I think ), with Sharon was looking for peace by handing over Gaza. It didn't go about it the right way, but the feeling was there, supported by the Government for the first time in a long while, and the feeling was unfortunately not mutual. Not sure when we'll have the Israeli government in such a position to go towards peace again.

Ok cool. I can understand it, but I don't support it...at all. You?

It is hard for me to answer this question. I mean, I don't 'support' it, but for me, it makes sense. I get why they are doing this. Let me try another fail analogy, (this is reflective of Israel's actions, does not reflect the Palestinians at all, am not comparing them here), I understand why some states in America have the death penalty, I get why they want to execute serial killers and serial rapists, but under no circumstances, do I support the death sentence. Does that work? :S

No, you jackass, it doesn't. It is the reason we have foreign aid, hospitals, mental health insitutions - to help people and help right wrongs. For fucks sake, the military is there to ensure that exact same response. "It's life, deal with it" is not the way society works. Wake the fuck up.

I know there's good in the world, organisations like Oxfam, Sane Australia etc., that is today, not 1948, which is the period of time I am alluding to. 'Good' is not to be found in an organised army in large quantities. It's the end of WW2, the majority of Jews in Israel have no home to go back to (I exclude the hundreds of thousands that had legally moved there prior to 1947), for them it is essentially a fight to the death. Most of the people fighting have seen unspeakable things in the camps in Europe, they are essentially desensitized. There is no feeling, no right or wrong. You support the winning side, or the losing side. The Palestinians that stayed in their homes are mostly Israeli-Arabs today and marginally better off than their Palestinian friends (although not better off than average Israelis, granted) who chose to leave, believing Arab army propaganda.

You say there were maybe probably around 100,000. Conjecture. Guesses. Rubbish.

Ah. True, not an exact amount, but it is near it. I only have statistics for Haifa, attained from a statement made by The Economist, a frequent critic of the Zionists, reported on October 2, 1948: "Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained" (after receiving the warnings from Arab propaganda) I assume this phenomenon would have been similar across Israel.

Do I support a right of return? Um...yes?

My statement was not supporting the whole Palestinian 'right of return.' It was a common case that many Palestinians, despite choosing to stay in their homes, were still removed by Israelis. I believe these individuals and thier descendants should be allowed to return, and the Israeli ancestors of the families who kicked them out, moved elsewhere. I do not support the whole right of return. The Palestinians who chose to leave, believing that the Jews in 1948 would be wiped out by the combined forces of the Arab armies have lost their homes. They made a terrible decision and will have to resettle in what becomes the new Palestinian state, or their new adopted homes in other countries.

And I'll give it to you - you're easier to work with than the average jackass who frequents these threads.

Aw, shucks *blushes*

 

[JasmineNuytre]

Obama is such an overrated president, his promises haven't been fulfilled and I was cringing throughout his address to the Middle East. Israel is one of the greatest and most civilized nations there is, he did not give them enough praise. Hamas is a TERRORIST organization, he should have neglected all support for them and the Palestinians.

 

[jb_nc]

Obama is such an overrated president, his promises haven't been fulfilled and I was cringing throughout his address to the Middle East. Israel is one of the greatest and most civilized nations there is, he did not give them enough praise. Hamas is a TERRORIST organization, he should have neglected all support for them and the Palestinians.

ok

 

[Uncle]

Obama is such an overrated president, his promises haven't been fulfilled and I was cringing throughout his address to the Middle East. Israel is one of the greatest and most civilized nations there is, he did not give them enough praise. Hamas is a TERRORIST organization, he should have neglected all support for them and the Palestinians.

bahahahaha.