Pandering to the Red Beast (2 Viewers)

[Enlightened_One]

Really, can you please show me what Quatrain that relates to?
Or were you making a joke?

 

[Xayma]

More a comment on how vague his prophecies are, they are also often back intepreted so that a prophecy becomes linked after an event happens.

 

[Enlightened_One]

yeah but the reason for that was that he would have persecuted as a demon or pagan or whatever so he made them deliberately convoluted. Or at least that's what I heard.

http://www.crystalinks.com/quatrainsinterpretations.html

Came across it while I was bored and should have been studying. Anyway, read the whole bit on where that bloke uses the quatrains to predict the war between the Arab Alliance and the West. Then the Red Dragon is mentioned. Methinks, as does the author, that means China.

 

[Phanatical]

The problem here is that you people continue to value the Government of the People's Republic of China by WESTERN values, rather than CHINESE values. Chinese leadership has NEVER been about democracy. Ever since the time of Unification, the Chinese leadership has ALWAYS been looked to as the father figure in the family. Whether China is lead by an Emperor, Empress or Party, the people of China are guided by their example.

In this respect, the Chinese Government is doing exactly what the Chinese People expect of their Government. We cannot, and must not judge the Chinese by western values - because western values do not apply.

 

[Xayma]

The people of Taiwan seem to have adapted relatively well to democracy.

 

[withoutaface]

The problem here is that you people continue to value the Government of the People's Republic of China by WESTERN values, rather than CHINESE values. Chinese leadership has NEVER been about democracy. Ever since the time of Unification, the Chinese leadership has ALWAYS been looked to as the father figure in the family. Whether China is lead by an Emperor, Empress or Party, the people of China are guided by their example.

In this respect, the Chinese Government is doing exactly what the Chinese People expect of their Government. We cannot, and must not judge the Chinese by western values - because western values do not apply.

Even up until WWI a large chunk of Europe was ruled by absolute monarchies, but they seemed to adapt to democracy pretty well, didn't they?

 

[Phanatical]

Confucianism dictates that the country is no more than one large family, and that the Emperor is the father figure whose role is to provide guidance for His children. The Government is doing its best to introduce a more modern viewpoint to the Chinese people, but we are all still incredibly influenced by the works of Kongzi.

 

[leetom]

The CCp doesn't observe any Confucian beliefs when implementing their policy. Ancient Chinese tradition is discarded, along with anything else that stnds in the way of a possible threat to the absolute power of the Communist Party. The Party only abuses the Chinese peoples' natural cultural adherence to authority, though only to further isolate the Party from the people and therefore a challange from the people.

It is a failure of the Chinese nation in that it was unable to undergo a peaceful transition from religious autocracy to a constitutional monarchy. Despite the animosity, China really should have looked to the example set by Japan.

 

[supercharged]

Democratic or not the CPC is doing a great job developing the economy, while povo democracies like Indonesia, Russia, India and Philipines can only look at China's gleaming cities and economy with envy.

One of many examples of New China: Shenzhen City

 

[Generator]

I'm just a little concerned about Chinese corporations becoming multinational (they are now the 3rd largest PC produce after buying IBMs PC company). The idea that Chinese censorship practices could become common place is worrying.

They're after buying into the Australian primary commodities market (not uranium), I believe. Not so much a censorship issue in that regard, but it is illustrative of China and its current attempts to flex its might in the international arena.

 

[Xayma]

lol I deleted it when I realised it is getting a little paranoid. But they have a fair few goals, Ill grab the article.

Name Goods in China but Brand X Elsewhere
By DAVID BARBOZA

SHANGHAI, June 28 - Never heard of brand names like Great Wall, Hisense, Konka, Amoi and Panda? Outside China, few have. That may change someday, but in the meantime, some Chinese companies are taking a shortcut and adopting widely known names to make their presence felt abroad.

China's leaders have been quietly encouraging Chinese companies for years to set up overseas operations, acquire foreign assets and transform themselves into multinational corporations - in other words, to make themselves more competitive in a world increasingly dominated by Wal-Mart, Microsoft and Coca-Cola.

Now, it seems, Chinese companies have gotten the message. This year, Lenovo - the Chinese computer maker - acquired I.B.M.'s personal computer business. Haier, one of China's biggest companies, made a bid last week for the Maytag Corporation. And in the same week, in the biggest move of all, one of China's state-owned oil giants made a hostile $18.5 billion bid for the Unocal Corporation, one of the world's largest oil companies.

Yet many of the companies seem to be acting partly out of desperation, as more foreign brands line the shelves of retailers in China.

"Chinese companies are now facing serious foreign competition at home," said Marshall W. Meyers, a professor of management at the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania. "So they have to do something. They've got to grow to global scale."

The fact is, despite restrictions on foreign competition here, few powerful brands have emerged in China over the last two decades. And now that some of those restrictions are being lifted as part of China's ascension into the World Trade Organization, some of China's biggest companies are being forced to adopt global strategies.

With its I.B.M. computer purchase, Lenovo, a major Chinese computer maker but virtually unknown outside of China, is suddenly the world's third-largest computer maker after Dell and Hewlett-Packard.

TCL, another Chinese company, became the world's biggest television set maker last year after it acquired the television set business of Thomson of France, which also owned the old RCA brand.

And then there was the bid last week by the China National Offshore Oil Corporation for Unocal, an offer that touched off a Wall Street-style takeover battle with the American oil company Chevron.

Experts say that whether these deals succeed or not, they are symbolic of China's rapid economic rise, and its global ambitions.

"The Chinese government has been preparing the top 100 to 150 companies to go overseas and expand," said Jack J. T. Huang, a chairman of the China practice at the law firm of Jones Day. "The government wants to use this as a testing ground, to see how well the companies stand up to international competition."

Dozens of Chinese companies stand in waiting, and are not shy about their global ambitions.

"The future goal of the company is to make the name Great Wall known across the world," said Liu Rengang, a spokesman for the state-controlled Great Wall Computer Group.

A spokesman for Ningbo Bird, a big cellphone maker, sounded equally ambitious: "Our future goal is to become one of the top three cellphone manufacturers in the world."

Earlier this month, the Ministry of Commerce issued a report that said that even though China's exports were dominated by consumer products, there were few famous Chinese brands involved in the export trade. Most goods are being shipped abroad with foreign brand labels.

To rectify the situation, the ministry called on Chinese companies to start exporting their own "famous brands." Every region was ordered to produce its own famous brands.

"We need to cultivate a group of independent famous brands that have international influence," the report stated. "Each industry needs to have its own famous brand for export."

The memo reads like a Communist Party document from a state planning commission. But the thinking behind the effort seems to be simple: imitate the foreigners.

Japanese and Korean companies like Toyota, Sony and Samsung made the moves from national to global brands successfully. But it took years.

Analysts say Chinese companies do not have that luxury because the rapid pace of globalization means that markets are now quickly won and lost.

"Chinese companies don't have that much choice but to acquire overseas companies," said Joe Chang, a China specialist at McKinsey & Company. "Very few companies can build organically any more. If they wait 10 to 15 years, they could be dead."

By acquiring well-known brand names, experts say, Chinese companies are hoping to get access to global distribution networks, sophisticated research and development and recognizable brand names.

"What these companies are looking for is to build up capabilities," said Oded Shenkar, a professor of management at Ohio State University and author of "The Chinese Century." "This is a shortcut. They don't have billions of dollars to invest in the growth. But here in one fell swoop, you're acquiring a venerable brand name."

One advantage some Chinese companies have is that they have worked for years as joint venture partners or suppliers for some of the world's biggest corporations, giving the Chinese an eye into the process of making premium-priced products.

And the amount of manufacturing done in China is astounding. According to C.L.S.A., an investment bank, 80 percent of the world's clocks and watches, 50 percent of its cameras, 30 percent of its microwave ovens, a quarter of its washing machines, and a fifth of the world's refrigerators are now "Made in China."

"Japanese and Korean companies initially came to the U.S. with a low-end product image," said Douglas Beal, a partner at the Boston Consulting Group. "It took a long time to take Japanese brand names and turn them into high-end products. Sony now commands a premium because it's Sony. But 20 years ago they couldn't do that."

The hurdles, however, are steep. The most serious problem facing Chinese companies, analysts say, is a lack of international experience and weak marketing and management structures.

That, experts say, is precisely why some big Chinese companies are bidding for Western icons like I.B.M., Maytag, RCA and even MG Rover, the English carmaker that has been pursued by at least three Chinese automakers in the last year.

And this is why after acquiring I.B.M.'s personal computer business this year, Lenovo asked the I.B.M. managers to stay on and run the entire company from New York.

"The most valuable asset we have acquired through I.B.M.'s PC business is its world-class management team and their extensive international experience," Liu Chuanzhi, the chairman of Lenovo said in an interview last December.

But can Lenovo run I.B.M.'s PC business? Can Haier, the appliance giant, manage Maytag?

Analysts are skeptical because, they say, most mergers fail.

"It's very difficult to make overseas acquisitions," said Gavin Geminder, a partner at KPMG, the global advisory firm. "Chinese companies have the same issues, and they probably have less-qualified management teams."

Chan Chun, a professor of finance at the China Europe International Business School in Shanghai, said Chinese companies had also struggled to manage their finances in a corporate environment.

"In terms of managing for shareholder value, they are weak," he said. "They lack international experience and have poor financial controls."

But no one expects that to slow China deal making. In fact, largely unnoticed earlier this month was a $1.4 billion bid by China Mobile, one of the giant state-owned telecom companies, for control of a Pakistani telecom company. China Mobile lost out on the deal, but its bid is notable.

And many of the Chinese companies are sparing no expense to hire Western lawyers and advisers.

Lenovo used McKinsey and Weil Gotshal & Manges. Haier is teaming up with the Blackstone Group and Bain Capital to acquire Maytag. And Cnooc has hired Goldman Sachs, J. P. Morgan, Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom and a team of lobbyists to make its pitch for Unocal.

The Chinese companies are also backed by state-owned banks, private equity funds and company war chests.

Cnooc's bid for Unocal, for instance, is backed by a $6 billion loan from the Industrial and Commercial Bank of China, the largest Chinese state-owned bank, and another $7 billion in loans is coming from its parent company at rates considerably below what market financing costs.

"There's probably a lot more deals to come," said Robert Morse, the chief executive for Citigroup corporate and investment banking in Asia. "Liquidity is at an all-time high for Chinese companies looking to fund overseas acquisitions."

And being the world's low-cost factory floor is no longer the country's singular ambition, analysts say.

That is perhaps why China Entrepreneur Magazine recently devoted a cover story to the question, "Should China Buy Wal-Mart?"

Xiang Bing, the dean of the Cheung Kong Graduate School of Business in Beijing, wrote that if Chinese investors could pool their resources, they could acquire a controlling stake in the ultimate global retail brand: Wal-Mart Stores.

That, he surmised, was one way a country with few global brands but lots of goods could move up the value chain.

 

[Generator]

Heh it's a fair fear if we are expected to just accept what the pro-China brigade are forever saying as we aren't viewing the issue in context.

Sorry, cherryblossom.

 

[Enlightened_One]

They're after buying into the Australian primary commodities market (not uranium), I believe. Not so much a censorship issue in that regard, but it is illustrative of China and its current attempts to flex its might in the international arena.

I can perceive a potential irony here. In twenty years we may be subservient to China or other foreign powers the same as Western countries exploit weaker countries if we continue to sell off all our assets and let in so much foreign investment and trade.

Hell, maybe the Chinese plan to take over Australia by buying up the whole damn country.

 

[hfis]

I can perceive a potential irony here. In twenty years we may be subservient to China or other foreign powers the same as Western countries exploit weaker countries if we continue to sell off all our assets and let in so much foreign investment and trade.

Hell, maybe the Chinese plan to take over Australia by buying up the whole damn country.

We will strike first with nuclear weapons from orbit. They will never see it coming, and we will emerge victorious from the flames of purity as our enemies beg for a respite from our storm of everlasting fire.

 

[paper cup]

I can perceive a potential irony here. In twenty years we may be subservient to China or other foreign powers the same as Western countries exploit weaker countries if we continue to sell off all our assets and let in so much foreign investment and trade.

Hell, maybe the Chinese plan to take over Australia by buying up the whole damn country.

isn't that a little too far fetched?
it's economically beneficial for Australia to engage in trade with Asia. For one thing the geographically proximity makes it ideal plus some countries like China are very short on natural resources (per capita that is. heaps of resources but with so many people there isn't enough to go around, also less attention paid to environment than here)
BHP is building a plant in Suzhou but I'm not too informed about what's happening with that

 

[Enlightened_One]

isn't that a little too far fetched?
it's economically beneficial for Australia to engage in trade with Asia. For one thing the geographically proximity makes it ideal plus some countries like China are very short on natural resources (per capita that is. heaps of resources but with so many people there isn't enough to go around, also less attention paid to environment than here)
BHP is building a plant in Suzhou but I'm not too informed about what's happening with that

I didn't say trade was bad. And I was throwing in a hypothetical.

 

[hfis]

I didn't say trade was bad. And I was throwing in a hypothetical.

Yes, you did.

Personally comrade, I believe that trade is the worst idea possible. It is absolutely ludicrous, much like capitalism and how it steps on the worker. One day we will rise, comrade, and show everyone that trade is bad!

 

[Enlightened_One]

hfis you must really be pathetic. I can't believe you resorted to rigging up a fake quote by me in order to get back at me. I kind of matured beyond that in about year nine.
Moonlight, because of this idiot, my support for a moderator to rid us of idiots has doubled.

 

[paper cup]

I didn't say trade was bad. And I was throwing in a hypothetical.

kindly keep your hypotheticals non offensive in the future.

 

[Enlightened_One]

kindly keep your hypotheticals non offensive in the future.

I said that so people would think at things from a different angle. And I wanted to get some reactions. Though I was being ironic. And I don't see what I said was so offensive?