Plan to take it easy until uni, then work hard to become a Dr - is it flawed? (2 Viewers)

[Beyblader]

Just going to dispel this myth as someone who actually studies medicine - this is not true. Most people get through. The faculty supports students very well and there is lots of support from other students. The people who fail medicine (ie only around 5%) are typically those who never wanted to study medicine in the first place - and in some unis nobody fails because they let students re-sit exams if they fail. Also, grades in med school (at least in NSW) are about as meaningful as what uni you went to (ie meaningless)- everyone receives the same qualification and same internship job at the end of it.

You seem to have misunderstood my comment. I meant that kid with the highest ATARs don't generally do the best at medical school i.e the top 20% ranked students at the end of med school are generally not the kids that entered need school with the top 29% if ATARs. I didn't say they would fail - its pretty damn hard to fail at med school unless you develop a physical or mental health disorder or have some traffic life event occur.

As with everything difficult in life there are levels to medicine and those Drs that make it into the most competitive specialties ( which generally means surgical or other interventional specialties) are often not those that for the best atars

 

[Beyblader]

I don’t understand this obsession with “losing your youth” in Year 12. Honestly, Year 12 is not really “youth”. The real enjoyment of “youth” (so to speak) happens in uni - especially once you and your peers turn 18. I’m sure most people will agree with me.

You can still study medicine at uni and have a life (a lot of people do). You have way more free time in uni than in high school. Not to mention there is less incentive to get top marks at uni (as long as your uni marks are “good enough” you’ll get the degree).

However, if you’re trying to go down the post-grad route then you have to work harder and “sacrifice your youth” at uni (where the whole “youth” experience matters most) rather than high school. The stakes are higher and risker - especially if you have no fallback option. Not to mention the additional costs of time and money (uni fees, study material and transport costs etc for doing an extra undergrad degree) into taking the longer study pathway.

From an opportunity cost perspective, you’re far better off holding off “enjoying your youth” until uni. You should give it your best now and at least seeing if you can get into med at all whilst the opportunity is still available (it’s not just about ATAR but also interview performance and UCAT etc). The last thing you want is to regret not working harder at such a crucial high stakes junction of your education/career - especially if you happen to get a lower than expected result.

As mentioned in my earlier post, if it really was a matter of just working super hard in year 11 and 12 then I think that would be perfectly acceptable to me. But my impression (and I'm open to being corrected if wrong) is that very few get 99.5+ by just starting to work hard in year 11, instead they have usually been heavily tutored and been working on studies to the relative exclusion of socialising and personal activities from year 5-6 onwards and genuine have given up many experiences of youth to achieve the high ATAR.

I agree that the longer route is significantly more expensive and is an important factor to consider too

 

[Beyblader]

I actually think someone with 130 IQ who works hard still probably only has <10-20% chance of getting into undergrad medicine. Avg IQ of med hopefuls is higher than the avg population and admission rate is only like 5%.. (of UCAT candidates). Back when there was no UMAT/interview, the flat atar requirement for UNSW medicine was like 99.8+ (or top 0.2% of the average population).

Post-grad is less competitive, but not 'easier'. 3+ anxious years where most fail or give up. The avg USYD med student is 22-23 (or took 4-5 tries before being successful). Also, GAMSAT tests different attributes to the UCAT. Success in one does not mean success in the other (ie dont give up your shot at standard entry so easily, you may be better at UCAT than GAMSAT who knows). While percentiles for an interview through the GAMSAT is lower than the UCAT, it doesn't mean it is easier - the number of GAMSAT candidates is half that of UCAT. So while a UCAT percentile of around top 10% is needed for an interview, you can see why a GAMSAT percentile of around top 20% (i think?) is needed. Probably just as difficult given GAMSAT applicants are probably more determined and hardworking given it requires much more time and money to sit the GAMSAT than UCAT.

Your argument makes sense had you wanted to avoid trying at the HSC for other degrees because transferring into any degree only requires a distinction or so in uni. However, not so much for medicine!

Also there is a life while studying med- absolutely your years as a med student is not just all in the books (perhaps except your first clinical year). I think I spent like 1 day a week studying back in 1st year?. Bumped up to 2 in 2nd year lol. It's really not that bad. Srsly, I think I would have had a rougher time doing a non med undergrad gunning for HD averages compared to doing medicine where you just need a pass (and pass rates are quite high, hovering around 95%...)

Avoid the min 3y (likely 4-5 if you even get in) if you can man. Besides, if you really wanted to do medicine, you would seek to maximise your chances through all avenues - and definitely not squander a rare opportunity at standard entry that holds half of all med school positions.

You make a lot of good points there

RE gamsat applicants I disagree they are higher standard and motivated - sure many are but I think a large proportion haven't got a clue and are just taking a half heated shot and would never have a how of shot do to lack of intelligence / work ethic / poor exam technique etc

Is it possible to transfer into Med halfway through a different degree?

 

[Trebla]

As mentioned in my earlier post, if it really was a matter of just working super hard in year 11 and 12 then I think that would be perfectly acceptable to me. But my impression (and I'm open to being corrected if wrong) is that very few get 99.5+ by just starting to work hard in year 11, instead they have usually been heavily tutored and been working on studies to the relative exclusion of socialising and personal activities from year 5-6 onwards and genuine have given up many experiences of youth to achieve the high ATAR.

I agree that the longer route is significantly more expensive and is an important factor to consider too

If we go by your theory that in order to get a high ATAR (which is only ONE part of getting into medicine - quite a number of high ATAR students fail the interview stage just saying) you needed to have started working hard and making sacrifices at a young age, then that principle would still hold at uni. If you’re currently hesitant about your abilities to do well and even reluctant to try to actually find out how well you can do, what makes you think you can suddenly turn that around during your uni years (according to your theory)?

I also reiterate my point that the ‘experiences of youth’ are most enjoyable during your uni years (not your high school years) where you have way more free time available to do what you want (be it a part time job or extra-curricular stuff which is a big thing at uni) not to mention the freedom of being a legal adult.

 

[Trebla]

You make a lot of good points there

RE gamsat applicants I disagree they are higher standard and motivated - sure many are but I think a large proportion haven't got a clue and are just taking a half heated shot and would never have a how of shot do to lack of intelligence / work ethic / poor exam technique etc

What evidence do you have to support this? At least from my perspective the people I see who attempt to get into postgrad med are very motivated and hard working. Not to mention far more mature and experienced than their high school selves, so they would know exactly what they’re getting themselves into.

 

[iStudent]

There is no 'best at medical school' or 'top 20%'. The top student is just as good as the bottom student who just passed. Esp true given some unis push out med students with just pass or fail on their academic transcript. The requirements to enter competitive specialties are more to do with things you do post-grad (ie research, networks, additional courses, ECs etc) and none of it is to do with grades - you can check out some example requirements on the RACS website.

Also, are you not in y11/12? Why give up so early at your shot of 99.5+ you never know man. Besides, at least aim for an atar that opens up some medical schools (eg WSU/JMP where you need like 96?) rather than just enough to get into med sci or something equivalent - then give UCAT a shot with whatever preparation you are comfortable with. Never know you might be a hidden genius who gets in.

Anyway, I can see your point - having a happy youth is important. However, you should be prepared that a career in medicine doesn't come without sacrifice. If you are not prepared to sacrifice some time when you are just in high school, i do question whether medicine is the career for you. Besides, you don't need to completely caveman yourself to get into med. You can still afford to have a social life, which many of my peers did when they were in high school. Rather than tossing the idea of getting a high atar away - why not learn how to effectively balance a social life with your study life? (ie study "smart", not "hard").

The only degree that you can transfer into med 'half way' is dentistry (and that's if you are at the top of the dentistry class gunning for OMF).

Edit:
I think going in with the mentality that you won't get in, so you won't even try is not very productive. Nobody gets into medicine by accident. If you are serious about medicine, you need to be more ambitious that that!

Anyway, that's about the extent of my 2 cents on this topic. Nonetheless, I sense you might be thinking of doing a science or med sci degree in uni to get into medicine - please have a read of: https://medstudentsonline.com.au/fo...-leavers-and-other-medicine-applicants.32824/

 

[Beyblader]

That's a great reply and the post you linked very informative