question: the accounting hierarchy (1 Viewer)

[fallover]

Hey guys,

I was just curious as to what the accounting hierarchy would be like in a big four firm. so at the lower end there are the graduates and at the higher end you have the partners, but what is in between all these levels? and if there is a rough norm, how many years would it take to make partner?

cheers

 

[Vagabond]

Vacationer/Co-op student -> Trainee -> Graduate -> Accountant -> Senior Accountant -> Manager (only needs to be CA qualified from here onwards) -> Senior Manager -> Director -> Partner

(at some of the big4 partner is split between equity sharing partners and non-equity sharing partners, so you get younger partners that technically aren't partners... I think these places skip the director grade though)

Partners are usually somewhere in their 30's, early or later.

And there's also an enormous difference from partner to partner, depending on say, if they're on the national leadership team, head of XYZ, etc.

The bell curve is thickest around the accountant/senior accountant level.

Keep in mind however that there's always a high staff turnover up until the Director level.

Ta daaa

 

[Conspirocy]

Yeah I'd just add that at certain levels for example senior accountant there would be sub levels on it, e.g. Senior 3 > Senior 2> Senior 1

 

[Evan11]

noob question, but which are the big 4?

 

[Evan11]

KPMG, Deloitte, PWC, EY

EDIT:

Partner>Principal>Director>Manager>Senior Analyst>Analyst>Graduate>Vacationer

Havnt heard of the first 2 (dw im not planning amajor in Accounting) but the last 2 are PricewaterhouseCoopers and Ernst & Young yeah? theyre just about the only accounting firms i know of lol What makes them so good??

 

[Evan11]

The Big 4 are the biggest 4 Accounting firms in the world...pretty fucking simple.

Really? In the world. Whoa i thought we were talking australia here. Do australian qualifications meet their standards?

 

[jase_]

They are global companies, so yes Aust qualifications are recognised by them (especially at their Aust offices obviously). A fair amount of people there would be a CA as well, which is recognised around the world. A fair amount of people also travel around the world to work for the company in another country for a little while to gain a broader range of experience.

 

[blakegman]

Really? In the world. Whoa i thought we were talking australia here. Do australian qualifications meet their standards?

Great thinking Kaka.

 

[Vagabond]

They focus on ICAA qualified staff. Once you have your CA you're degree doesn't matter at the big4, they can send you overseas etc.

 

[leoyh]

just want to add that at pwc, there's apaprently 16 levels of partners (according to my brother that works at pwc)

 

[lizbon]

KPMG, Deloitte, PWC, EY

EDIT:

Partner>Principal>Director>Manager>Senior Analyst>Analyst>Graduate>Vacationer

Directors and partners are the same thing, the name is interchangeable. vagabond's pretty much got the structure spot on.

partners are not in their 30's....majority would be at least in their 40's, the idea of a non equity partner would be quite illogical, since the point of been a partner is buying into the partnership so you could profit share (commonly they lend you the money to buy in with very low interest charge)

 

[redruM]

Directors and Partners are not the same thing everywhere...

 

[Vagabond]

Directors and partners are the same thing, the name is interchangeable. vagabond's pretty much got the structure spot on.

partners are not in their 30's....majority would be at least in their 40's, the idea of a non equity partner would be quite illogical, since the point of been a partner is buying into the partnership so you could profit share (commonly they lend you the money to buy in with very low interest charge)

Most partners aren't in their 30's because most partners work as partners until retirement.

 

[roadcone]

Directors and partners are the same thing, the name is interchangeable. vagabond's pretty much got the structure spot on.

partners are not in their 30's....majority would be at least in their 40's, the idea of a non equity partner would be quite illogical, since the point of been a partner is buying into the partnership so you could profit share (commonly they lend you the money to buy in with very low interest charge)

there are very few accounting partnerships to which you actually 'buy in' when you make partner status. furthermore, the idea of a non equity partner makes quite a lot of sense seeing as most of the partnerships work as limited liability partnerships.

 

[seremify007]

Hmm I can think of one firm *cough* whereby they do have to contribute* upon being welcomed to the partnership... this is based on our informal Q&A with one of the new partners at his congratulatory drinks.

Anyhow regarding vagabond's post- he missed out on the new level; outsourced staff members/contractors.

Outsourced / Contractors > Vacationer/Co-op student -> Trainee -> Graduate -> Accountant -> Senior Accountant -> Manager -> Senior Manager -> Director -> Partner

Furthermore if you read through some of the documentation in the policies there's actually something called Senior Director (surprised me too) in some firms.

* However he did not go into depth about how much or what he contributed. For all I know it could've been a salary sacrifice or something "in the future".

 

[lizbon]

Hmm I can think of one firm *cough* whereby they do have to contribute* upon being welcomed to the partnership... this is based on our informal Q&A with one of the new partners at his congratulatory drinks.

Anyhow regarding vagabond's post- he missed out on the new level; outsourced staff members/contractors.

Outsourced / Contractors > Vacationer/Co-op student -> Trainee -> Graduate -> Accountant -> Senior Accountant -> Manager -> Senior Manager -> Director -> Partner

Furthermore if you read through some of the documentation in the policies there's actually something called Senior Director (surprised me too) in some firms.

* However he did not go into depth about how much or what he contributed. For all I know it could've been a salary sacrifice or something "in the future".

ditto, interned at a big 4 and my snr manager told me to be a partner you would have to buy in, and she was adamant that this is common practice but correct me if this isnt the case esp in the mid/lower tiers.

what does LLP have to do with non-equity contribution? wouldnt LLP would only serve to protect equity contributing partner from excessive liability?

 

[turtleface]

ditto, interned at a big 4 and my snr manager told me to be a partner you would have to buy in, and she was adamant that this is common practice but correct me if this isnt the case esp in the mid/lower tiers.

what does LLP have to do with non-equity contribution? wouldnt LLP would only serve to protect equity contributing partner from excessive liability?

LLP in the US sense or the Australian sense?

NFI about the US system, but in Australia there are limited partnerships, where if you are a partner not involved in day to day running (general partner I think) you can have liability protection. NFI how that applies to accounting firms given professional firms have their own various legislations, insurance schemes etc.

2 points I'll make, each of the Big 4 have different heirachies, e.g. KPMG audit was Partner > Senior Manager > Manager (3 levels) > Assistant Manager (2-3 levels) > Senior Accountant (2 levels) > Accountant (2 levels with level 1 being grad) > Co-op > Vacationer

Also back when Andersen went down the toilet, it was reported partners lost about $1m of their own equity each...that was the only international partnership of the then big 5 though

Also good to see all the old folks still here, I haven't posted for ages but roadcone, redrum, seremify, jase, conspiracy, lizbon, vagabond all familiar names hi guys!

 

[seremify007]

I think we need to take into account that the term 'partner' and so on are used considerably more loosely nowadays than the term which we are used to learning about in school/university.

Sure they may be a partner, but of which entity? The entity which incurs debts for the firm, the entity which pays salaries (or trust), the entity which signs off on finstats, the entity which holds the AFSL license, etc... they're all separate. Then there's also the whole professional standards limited liability concept (refer to the bottom of any audit opinion for details).

In short, partner seems more like a title rather than a legal obligation. Sure if the firm or partnerships get penalised and they need to distribute the penalty, it comes out of partner equity, but I think if there ever was an incident which was so serious it would cause serious losses to the actual partners (e.g. a firm collapsing), the firm would probably make use of it's specialised structure to protect the partners.