quick question (1 Viewer)

[repz]

is the pharaoh counted as an official
if your question is to discuss the life of officials in old kingdom egypt

 

[gosh]

officials usually refers to the people who run the administration eg: vizier
i guess it can also include the pharaoh since he is involved in running the kingdom.

 

[xeuyrawp]

is the pharaoh counted as an official
if your question is to discuss the life of officials in old kingdom egypt

I would say not. Officials generally worked to earn their place, Pharaohs were just somebody's son.

 

[hipPo3]

I would say not. Officials generally worked to earn their place, Pharaohs were just somebody's son.

To become pharoh u could marry into the family.. there are a few ways to become pharoh other than it being heredity.

I would say that the pharohs are part of the Administration as they do take role in Egypts functions, just not the daily minor jobs which nomarchs would.

 

[xeuyrawp]

To become pharoh u could marry into the family.. there are a few ways to become pharoh other than it being heredity.

I would say that the pharohs are part of the Administration as they do take role in Egypts functions, just not the daily minor jobs which nomarchs would.

Give me an example of when a Pharaoh married into the family and got his position. The only thing that even comes close is when a dynasty dies and a Pharaoh is appointed from the military.

 

[hipPo3]

Give me an example of when a Pharaoh married into the family and got his position. The only thing that even comes close is when a dynasty dies and a Pharaoh is appointed from the military.[

Userkare of the 6th dynasty .. there isnt much knowlegde about him tho
and Teti, whos wife was Queen Iput, daughter of Unas in the 5th period.

Userkare got in by murdering Teti but still considered to be illegiimate, still he was mentioned to be a king between Teti and Pepi I by Manetho.

 

[xeuyrawp]

Userkare of the 6th dynasty .. there isnt much knowlegde about him tho
and Teti, whos wife was Queen Iput, daughter of Unas in the 5th period.

Userkare got in by murdering Teti but still considered to be illegiimate, still he was mentioned to be a king between Teti and Pepi I by Manetho.

Userkare didn't marry in... Teti didn't either.

 

[invoiced]

i thought teti did
oh well

 

[xeuyrawp]

i thought teti did
oh well

Teti marrying into kingship was secondary to him becoming a king, ie, he didn't marry to become a king, but was advised to be king and had to marry.

 

[hipPo3]

Teti marrying into kingship was secondary to him becoming a king, ie, he didn't marry to become a king, but was advised to be king and had to marry.

i didnt say userkare married into kingship .. i meant to say there where other ways of getting into royalty other than it being pure bloodline.

He married Iput and Iput is the duaghter of Unas, therefore he became pharaoh because of marriage.. which means that he became pharaoh by marring into the family.

 

[xeuyrawp]

He married Iput and Iput is the duaghter of Unas, therefore he became pharaoh because of marriage.. which means that he became pharaoh by marring into the family.

Ack. You didn't read what I said properly. No Pharaoh ever married specifically to become Pharaoh in that chronological order. Ie, no man ever thought "I want to become Pharaoh, I'll marry x"- they were always selected to become Pharaoh and would then have married as a consequence.

 

[hipPo3]

Ack. You didn't read what I said properly. No Pharaoh ever married specifically to become Pharaoh in that chronological order. Ie, no man ever thought "I want to become Pharaoh, I'll marry x"- they were always selected to become Pharaoh and would then have married as a consequence.

umm, what where u actually talkin bout?
im just saying that u dont have to be the son of the previous king to become the pharaoh.

 

[xeuyrawp]

umm, what where u actually talkin bout?.

Hmm, let's see. We're on a message board, and the messages are displayed in chronological order based on posting time.

I think I said this:

Give me an example of when a Pharaoh married into the family and got his position. The only thing that even comes close is when a dynasty dies and a Pharaoh is appointed from the military.

I was talking about marriage. Nothing more.

 

[hipPo3]

dude .. i know what u mean, i just dont understand why ur making a big deal out of this. I said marrying as an example of becomming a pharaoh .. then i gave an example of Teti. Even if it wasnt his intention, he still became pharaoh because of it.

 

[xeuyrawp]

dude .. i know what u mean, i just dont understand why ur making a big deal out of this. I said marrying as an example of becomming a pharaoh .. then i gave an example of Teti. Even if it wasnt his intention, he still became pharaoh because of it.

How am I making a deal out of it? You can't read properly. Teti didn't become Pharaoh due to him marrying. He was already selected as Pharaoh, and of course had to marry into to the family to legitimise his position. Him becoming Pharaoh was an event decided before marrying. The various officials, nobles, and royal family did not say "Oh, let's see who marries our daughter. He'd make a great Pharaoh. We'll leave it up to her to decide who shal run our country". They said "We need a new Pharaoh, Teti is great (and is probably assumed to be heir apparent anyway,), so we need him to marry someone in our family, as his children need to continue the dynasty". He could have married anyone in that family, although the family obviously chose the best choice to concrete his position.

.: marriage --then-> became pharaoh is incorrect,
rather, was chosen to be pharaoh --then-> married.

It's not difficult.

 

[hipPo3]

How am I making a deal out of it?

because this argument has been going on for quite a while now, and ive made my piont very clear. i.e u dont have to part of the family to become pharaoh.

QUOTE=PwarYuex] Teti didn't become Pharaoh due to him marrying. He was already selected as Pharaoh, and of course had to marry into to the family to legitimise his position. Him becoming Pharaoh was an event decided before marrying. The various officials, nobles, and royal family did not say "Oh, let's see who marries our daughter. He'd make a great Pharaoh. We'll leave it up to her to decide who shal run our country". They said "We need a new Pharaoh, Teti is great (and is probably assumed to be heir apparent anyway,), so we need him to marry someone in our family, as his children need to continue the dynasty". He could have married anyone in that family, although the family obviously chose the best choice to concrete his position.

.: marriage --then-> became pharaoh is incorrect,
rather, was chosen to be pharaoh --then-> married.

It's not difficult.[/QUOTE]

ok .. so teti was chosen to become pharaoh before marriage it still means that u dont have to be part of the family to become a pharaoh. Even if its the choice by the family, Teti was noway related to any of the pharaoh bloodline, and his main connection was through Iput.

Besides .. how do u know the family chose him? .. do u have any sources to back that up ? .. Where'd u learn this about Teti ? .. i know nothing but the basics about him, i only Sahure of the 5th dynasty.

 

[hipPo3]

double post

*i only know Sahure in detail*

 

[xeuyrawp]

because this argument has been going on for quite a while now, and ive made my piont very clear. i.e u dont have to part of the family to become pharaoh.

Of course you didn't have to be part of the family to become Pharaoh, I never said you would. That's a stupid notion, as it would imply EVERY pharaoh was part of the same genological family, which is untrue. What is true is that every pharaoh would have linked himself with the family above to legitimise his reign (with the exception of foreign rulers). This was frequently done by marriage. You said this:

To become pharoh u could marry into the family

Which is incorrect. The noble and royal family wouldn't just let someone marry in and then give them the kingship. That's stupid. They decided before hand who would make a good pharaoh and then introduce that person into the family.

It happened from predynastic times which is shown by the later paintings at el Omari, Faiyum, and Buto, where the chieftains even did this. This happened way into the late periods. Many examples, including the ones for Teti exist. If you're really that adamant, I could find the exact sources.

Again, the Pharaohs couldn't attain Pharaonic status by simply marrying. It's a fact. There's no argument about it.

 

[TangleElfshimer]

is the pharaoh counted as an official
if your question is to discuss the life of officials in old kingdom egypt

im pretty sure he isnt actually counted as an official

 

[xeuyrawp]

im pretty sure he isnt actually counted as an official

Who cares? It's a moot point, because they could ask their teacher.