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Racist comments from Simon Fuller - Cameraman Incident (1 Viewer)

ibbi00

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Clearly I'm not qualified to address the issue you raised about the punishment for homosexuality in Islam though I urge you to direct your question to more qualified scholars.
 

ibbi00

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On a side note jarkler. When would you estimate the discovery about wind being one of the main methods of plant fertilisation took place?

No, this is not a trick question.
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Wrong, It was already revealed 1400 years ago in the Quran.

It is We Who send the fertilizing winds, then We send down water from the sky, and then We give it to you to drink, you are not the one who would store of this wealth.(Quran 15:22)
How about this one, it should be easy enough. When would you estimate the fact that the universe is expanding was discovered?
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Wrong again, It was already established in the Quran 1400 years ago.

"...We have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.... " (Quran 51:47)
 
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jarkler

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On a side note jarkler. When would you estimate the discovery about wind being one of the main methods of plant fertilisation took place?

No, this is not a trick question.

Wrong, It was already revealed 1400 years ago in the Quran.

It is We Who send the fertilizing winds, then We send down water from the sky, and then We give it to you to drink, you are not the one who would store of this wealth.(Quran 15:22)
For the first one I'll give you two different translations of that verse.
Abdullah Yusuf Ali - And We send the fecundating winds, then cause the rain to descend from the sky, therewith providing you with water (in abundance), though ye are not the guardians of its stores.

Ali Quli Qara'i - And We send the fertilizing winds and send down water from the sky providing it for you to drink and you are not maintainers of its resources.
Neither of those two nor the unsourced one you provided say anything about "plant fertilization", it sounds like some kind of explanation of how rain happens. Note that they don't even mention clouds, but just a vague reference to the sky.

You called wind one of the main methods of plant fertilization. If I were you I'd stop using the Quran as a science book until it gets updated with some mention of atmospheric requirements and photosynthesis. :spin:

How about this one, it should be easy enough. When would you estimate the fact that the universe is expanding was discovered?

Wrong again, It was already established in the Quran 1400 years ago.

"...We have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.... " (Quran 51:47)
Abdullah Yusuf Ali - With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.

Ali Quli Qara'i - We have built the sky with might, and indeed it is We who are its expanders.
The first says nothing about current present tense expansion. Neither does the second.

Again you've seemingly been selective with your translations. I suggest you maybe look up the Arabic for those verses and maybe check out the word roots and verb conjugation to see wat went rong.

Source: Online Quran Project (OQP)
 

ibbi00

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For the first one I'll give you two different translations of that verse.


Neither of those two nor the unsourced one you provided say anything about "plant fertilization", it sounds like some kind of explanation of how rain happens. Note that they don't even mention clouds, but just a vague reference to the sky.

You called wind one of the main methods of plant fertilization. If I were you I'd stop using the Quran as a science book until it gets updated with some mention of atmospheric requirements and photosynthesis. :spin:
PICKTHAL: And We send the winds fertilising, and cause water to descend from the sky, and give it you to drink. It is not ye who are the holders of the store thereof.
SHAKIR: And We send the winds fertilizing, then send down water from the cloud so We give it to you to drink of, nor is it you who store it up.
SOURCE


From what I gather, you appear to be challenging the translation of the verse.

وارسلنا الرياح لواقح
Is the one we're after.

I'll take you through the translation of the verse.

وارسلنا means "and we send"
الرياح means "wind"
لواقح is the word originating from تلقيح which means "fertilisation, pollination, etc."
i.e, We have sent winds as fertilisers/pollinators.


Clearly you didn't pay enough attention in your biology/science classes.
The following is an extract explaining the role of wind as a main method in transferring pollen from plant to plant, i.e a crucial aspect in the process of fertilisation.


WIND DISPERSAL
Most plants that use wind to disperse their pollen have separate male and female flowers. The male flowers, such as these catkins, produce huge quantities of pollen and usually hang from twigs or are held up on stalks where they can catch the wind. Most female wind-pollinated flowers have long syles with exposed stigmas that increase their chances of catching pollen.
SOURCE

Clearly you wouldn't expect such detail in the Quran as it is not a science text book. The science is merely there to proof and verify the origin of the Quran.

But then again translating the Quran is very subjective so unless you have a concrete grasp of the Arabic language then clearly you will insist on the translation that suits your point even though you have no way of knowing whether said translation is accurate.

it is We who are its expanders.
This can still refer to an ongoing process. So what are you smoking dude?
 
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ibbi00

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we arent talking to miracles of the quran again are we

lol
"It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'an about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah." - Keith L. Moore
If one of the top embryologists in the world thinks so then clearly it's the real deal.
 

withoutaface

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If one of the top embryologists in the world thinks so then clearly it's the real deal.
Appeal to authority. His area of expertise is embryos, not divine messages. Also sampling bias. You could find tonnes more who refuted that idea.
 

acmilan

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Most of the 'embryo' miraculous revelations in the quran pretty much mimic and are a much much more simplified version of the works of Galen (and other Greek philosophers/scientists)

Shocking revelation: Galen and the others were around some 400 years before Islam was formed!

Another shocking revelation: Galens description of embyros (and hence the qurans) was actually later shown to be wrong.
 

ibbi00

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Another shocking revelation: Galens description of embyros (and hence the qurans) was actually later shown to be wrong.

No, the Quran's description of the development of embryos was NOT shown wrong as you claim contrary to Galen's disproved theories.

Also sampling bias. You could find tonnes more who refuted that idea.
Now the following were quoted from well known accomplished scientists confirming the science found in the Quran.


“In a relatively few aayahs (Quranic verses) is contained a rather comprehensive description of human development from the time of commingling of the gametes through organogenesis. No such distinct and complete record of human development, such as classification, terminology, and description, existed previously. In most, if not all, instances, this description antedates by many centuries the recording of the various stages of human embryonic and fetal development recorded in the traditional scientific literature.”

Dr. Gerald C. Goeringer is Course Director and Associate Professor of Medical Embryology at the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington, DC, USA.
“I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scriptures of the Holy Quran, and I have no way of knowing where they would come from, but I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and that this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages.” And when he was asked about the source of the Quran, he replied: “Well, I would think it must be the divine being.”


Dr. William W. Hay is a well-known marine scientist. He is Professor of Geological Sciences at the University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado, USA. He was formerly the Dean of the Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science at the University of Miami, Miami, Florida, USA. After a discussion with Professor Hay about the Quran’s mention of recently discovered facts on seas.
“Summary: The Quran describes not only the development of external form, but emphasizes also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized by contemporary science.”
Also he said: “As a scientist, I can only deal with things which I can specifically see. I can understand embryology and developmental biology. I can understand the words that are translated to me from the Quran. As I gave the example before, if I were to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I knew today and describing things, I could not describe the things which were described. I see no evidence for the fact to refute the concept that this individual, Muhammad, had to be developing this information from some place. So I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved in what he was able to write.”

Dr. E. Marshall Johnson is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Developmental Biology at Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA. There, for 22 years he was Professor of Anatomy, the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy, and the Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute. He was also the President of the Teratology Society. He has authored more than 200 publications.
Dr. Joe Leigh Simpson is the Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology, and Professor of Molecular and Human Genetics at the Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA. Formerly, he was Professor of Ob-Gyn and the Chairman of the Department of Ob-Gyn at the University of Tennessee, Memphis, Tennessee, USA. He was also the President of the American Fertility Society. He has received many awards, including the Association of Professors of Obstetrics and Gynecology Public Recognition Award in 1992. Professor Simpson studied the following two sayings of the Prophet Muhammad
:

{In every one of you, all components of your creation are collected together in your mother’s womb by forty days...}

{If forty-two nights have passed over the embryo, God sends an angel to it, who shapes it and creates its hearing, vision, skin, flesh, and bones....}

He studied these two sayings of the Prophet Muhammad
extensively, noting that the first forty days constitute a clearly distinguishable stage of embryo-genesis. He was particularly impressed by the absolute precision and accuracy of those sayings of the Prophet Muhammad
. Then, during one conference, he gave the following opinion:



“So that the two hadeeths (the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad
) that have been noted provide us with a specific time table for the main embryological development before forty days. Again, the point has been made, I think, repeatedly by other speakers this morning: these hadeeths could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available [at] the time of their writing . . . . It follows, I think, that not only there is no conflict between genetics and religion but, in fact, religion can guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches, that there exist statements in the Quran shown centuries later to be valid, which support knowledge in the Quran having been derived from God.”
So you're telling me that all these accomplished scientists with their PhD's are wrong and you, possibly considered most insignificant compared to them are right? Now that just seems plain arrogance to me.

Now moving on to your beloved Galen.

The first major translator of Galen into Arabic was the Syrian Christian Hunayn ibn Ishaq.
SOURCE

Lifetime of the translator was between 809 and 873 so unless Arabs had time machines then there is no way Galen's work was available to prophet Muhammed (PBUH) even though there are no relationships that were drawn between Galen's work and the Quran.
 
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acmilan

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You seriously need a history lesson if you think Arab society had no knowledge of Greek philosophy/science prior to texts being translated to Arabic.

Also grats on only posting a tiny amount of what the quran says about the topic. There are so many things said in the quran that so blatantly obviously mimic the work of Galen.

And as for your quotes? I recognise the people that said them are knowledgeable in the area, but at the same time they're not historians and pretty obviously dont have a knowledge of history if they think the few parts written in the quran that are actually correct are unique or original.

Probably the person who I'd trust most to commentate on the topic is Joseph Needham who wrote a comprehensive history of embryological thought in his book A History of Embryology (1959).

In said book, "Needham is unimpressed with the Arabic claims of embryology and after writing almost 60 pages about ancient Greek, Indian and Egyptian embryology he dismisses the entire Arabic tradition in less than one page, concluding that "Arabic science, so justly famed for its successes in certain fields such as optics and astronomy, was not of great help to embryology". After listing some of the verses in the Qur'an about embryology he dismisses them as merely "a seventh-century echo of Aristotle and the Ayer-veda" [56], in other words a mixture of Greek and ancient Indian teachings. In the most recent (1998) edition of The Developing Human, Moore (someone you quoted as supporting the quran on this issue) also directs his readers to a book which contains another essay by Basim Musallam, which again points out how similar the Qur'anic science of embryology was to that of Galen, and how this close association was never questioned by the ancient Muslim scholars"
 
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mirakon

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Although it may be legal, this is a simple 'technicality'. What Simon Fuller did was deliberately unethical and shameful which makes what he did unjustifiably stupid and bad.
 

ibbi00

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And as for your quotes? I recognise the people that said them are knowledgeable in the area, but at the same time they're not historians and pretty obviously dont have a knowledge of history if they think the few parts written in the quran that are actually correct are unique or original.

Probably the person who I'd trust most to commentate on the topic is Joseph Needham who wrote a comprehensive history of embryological thought in his book A History of Embryology (1959).
I provided a sample of a number of scientists confirming the science in Quran. You chose to "trust" Joseph Needham because it conveniently agrees with your point. Now that sounds like sampling bias to me.

My point still stands. Aristotle, Galen, Ancient Indian teachings... you name it, have all been proven incorrect. Embryology in the Quran on the other was not.
So how could it be an "echo" or a "mixture" of said teachings?
 

acmilan

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I provided a sample of a number of scientists confirming the science in Quran. You chose to "trust" Joseph Needham because it conveniently agrees with your point. Now that sounds like sampling bias to me.

My point still stands. Aristotle, Galen, Ancient Indian teachings... you name it, have all been proven incorrect. Embryology in the Quran on the other was not.
So how could it be an "echo" or a "mixture" of said teachings?
No, I trust Needham because he is an actual authority on the development of embryological thought in history. In laymans terms, he is more knowledgeable about who said what and when they said it. Studying a science doesnt make you an expert in the history of that science.

Furthermore the philosophers prior to the invention of Islam were not all incorrect. They had elements that were right and wrong, just like in the quran (since the quran pretty much just copies what they said). Aristotle is considered the father of embryology, he contributed far more than the quran. If he was 'proven incorrect' he wouldnt have such a position.

But hey lets actually look at things the quran actually says about the issue.

The only direct thing you quoted from the quran is about the 40-42 day thing. Basically the quran says everything you need for the creation of an embryo is in the womb by that time. Then an angel comes and shapes it etc. I dont seem to recall thing explanation last time I studied embryology, I'll make sure to write to academics to inform them of their oversight of not including the part where the angel comes to create the embryo.

Next:
When forty-two nights have passed over the drop (nutfah), Allah sends an angel to it, who shapes it and makes its ears, eyes, skin, flesh and bones. Then he says, “O Lord, is it male or female?” and your Lord decides what he wishes.


So basically, the sperms stays as a drop for 42 days (wrong), then the angel shapes it and its then decided if the embryo is a male or female (wrong).

For the main part the explanation in the quran is a set of stages which roughly go as follows:

Male and female "drops" mix for the first 40 days -> It then becomes like a clot -> It then forms into a small lump of flesh -> Bones form -> Flesh forms around bones.

Before I even compare those stages to prior thought, anyone thats even half knowledgeable in the area knows this is so wrong its not funny. Theres pretty clear signs of the embryo already taking shape before the first 40 days (which contradicts the Islamic thought that nothing happens until 40 days). Furthermore the quran pretty clearly suggests flesh doesnt form until after bones, that it is a sequantial process; this too is wrong.

This is exactly the stages Galen suggests. Galen (as far as I know) actually was the first to suggest that male and female "sperm" mixes, Aristotle suggested it was only male. This 'drop' stage was his first stage of development. Guess what his 2nd stage is? Yeah, when the drop becomes blood (still devoid of any features). His 3rd stage? Flesh stage. I dont really need to go on..I was just going to post exactly what Galen said in terms of stages but its pretty big and this post is big enough already.


Edit: Not going to reply anymore in this thread, its way too off topic.
 
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ibbi00

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So basically, the sperms stays as a drop for 42 days (wrong), then the angel shapes it and its then decided if the embryo is a male or female (wrong).
“In every one of you, all components of your creation are gathered together in your mothers' womb by 40 days.”

“When forty-two nights have passed over the drop ( Nutfah ), Allah sends an angel to it, who shapes it and makes its ears, eyes, skin, flesh and bones. Then he says, “O Lord, is it male or female?” and your Lord decides what he wishes.
These are two Hadiths which have dealt with this point.

Now interestingly enough you appear to have developed your own interpretation by saying that the Hadith states that the sperm stays as a drop for 42 days and then suddenly it is shaped when in fact the Hadith never said that.

“When forty-two nights have passed over the drop" does not indicate that the drop stays as a drop during the 42 days.

Moving on.


For the main part the explanation in the quran is a set of stages which roughly go as follows:

Male and female "drops" mix for the first 40 days -> It then becomes like a clot -> It then forms into a small lump of flesh -> Bones form -> Flesh forms around bones.

Before I even compare those stages to prior thought, anyone thats even half knowledgeable in the area knows this is so wrong its not funny. Theres pretty clear signs of the embryo already taking shape before the first 40 days (which contradicts the Islamic thought that nothing happens until 40 days).


Now you appear to be confusing yourself between Quranic verses and the Hadith.

Hadith: a collection of sayings of the prophet (PBUH) that have been narrated

Quran:
the sacred writings of Islam revealed by God to the prophet Muhammad (PBUH)

I did not quote anything about embryology from the Quran yet hoping that you wouldn't confuse yourself even though you just did but ah well....

"Then We placed him as a drop in a place of rest." (Quran 23:13)

"Then We made the drop into a leech-like structure." (Quran 23:14)

"Then of that leech-like structure, We made a chewed lump." (Quran 23:14)

"Then We made out of the chewed lump, bones, and then we clothed the bones with flesh." (Quran 23:14)

[/COLOR]

Top, a drawing of a 24 day-old human embryo. Note the leech-like appearance of the human embryo at this stage. Below, a drawing of a leech or bloodsucker.


If we were to connect the verses and the Hadith together then said "milestones" would go along the lines of:

-Drop i.e zygote is formed
-Now the 42 day timer starts ticking
-Zygote is formed as it rests in the uterus.
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Leech like structure
-Chewed-lump of flesh like structure
- Soon enough 42 day mark arrives
- details such as ears, eyes, skin, flesh and bones (in no particular order) are shaped.


Furthermore the quran pretty clearly suggests flesh doesnt form until after bones, that it is a sequantial process; this too is wrong.

As for the flesh and bones then the last verse suggests that
both bones and muscles form adjacently. However, the wrapping of the muscles around the bones happens after the muscle precursor cells begin their development into muscle. Notice the reference to to the precursors' development and the wrapping of the muscles around the bones in verse 23:14 by Saying: "then we clothed the bones with flesh."[FONT=&quot] It is because the Verse wasn't speaking about which was created first, the bones or the muscles, but rather, it was speaking about the wrapping of the muscles around the bones happening after the creation of the bones
.

 
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