Russian hostage crisis (2 Viewers)

[ezzy85]

I dont know that Russia has much need for Chechnya, does it carry strategic or economic importance?.

lots of nice precious oil

 

[tWiStEdD]

there ya go then.
my opinion still stands. i was just keen to know why they love it so much.

 

[Ziff]

In my opinion, the Chechens live in constant fear of invasion. They feel like prisioners in their own country. Put yourself in their shoes. Constantly oppressed by greater Russia despite the independence they proclaim, and Russia denies. I dont know that Russia has much need for Chechnya, does it carry strategic or economic importance? I dont know this, either way they could have provided for a more complete compromise.
In their shoes, i dont know that i'd be that friendly towards the Russians. I would never be one of the terrorists, but i doubt i would find myself unable to understand their stance.
There are greater issues here, and before you condemn the 'terrorists' (one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter) you probably should ask WHY this happened. Seperate this from the deaths that have resulted, look deeper. Too much time is devoted to fighting the spread of terrorism (horrible label for the Chechens, IMHO), and too little time is devoted to reforms that would see 'happy' conclusions to these terrible times.

No, wrong. A freedom fighter operates within their own nation (e.g. Hungary 1956, Czechoslovakia 1968, Poland 1980s). A terrorist operates outside of their own territories e.g. Palestinians, Chechyian rebels etc.

The only similarity is that they are labelled as terrorists by those that oppose them - rightly or wrongly.

Freedom fighters also try and use proper international and domestic legal mechanisms as the real freedom fighters from the easter bloc tried to. They failed, but they tried. They didn't indiscriminately attack civilians and they most definitely didn't hold hostage children and preschoolers.

This didn't happen in Chechnya, this happened in a neighbouring state called Ossetia.

It didn't happen in the state of Chechnya (and yes, within the Russia Federation it is a state) and they attacked civilians indiscriminately.

There is no way you can call the Chechnyian terrorists freedom fighters for these reasons.

 

[tWiStEdD]

Tell me, where is Palestine?

As I am telling you now (MSN), these labels are totally inadequate. Freedom fighter or terrorist? Neither phrase do their job these days. They are both victims of propaganda.

The issues still exist. I like the way you attacked my grammar, rather than my arguement.

 

[Ziff]

Tell me, where is Palestine?

As I am telling you now (MSN), these labels are totally inadequate. Freedom fighter or terrorist? Neither phrase do their job these days. They are both victims of propaganda.

The issues still exist. I like the way you attacked my grammar, rather than my arguement.

I said within their own claimed territory. Chechnya is what they are claiming - the whole state. Not Ossetia.

Palestinians are claiming the West Bank and Gaza Strip which are defined territories. BUT they attack within the state of Israel (excluding the above mentioned areas). That is the difference. That is why they are terrorists.

* No, I attacked the sentiment that "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". Yes, there are issues as to why they did it, but, I think that the issue of the morality of attacking outside of the contested area AND attacking innocent civilians must be factored in. If I attacked a pre-school because the government was discriminating against me in some way, that is completely wrong no matter what.

It is a misused term now since the 'War on Terror" but before that, the terms were somewhat better definied. You can still make out from all the propaganda a better meaning of the phrase but it has become obfuscated.

 

[Generator]

Who defined those terms, Ziff?

 

[Enlightened_One]

Point taken. We have no idea the spin this incident has had in America, or what the American people think of it.

 

[tWiStEdD]

according to many Israelis, Palestine does not exist. According to some Palestinians, it covers the entirety of the Israeli state, according to others it is restricted. Palestine is not what the U.N said it would be. It is a number of different areas.... making it a clouded issue.

 

[ogmzergrush]

Too much time is devoted to fighting the spread of terrorism (horrible label for the Chechens, IMHO)

You're spot on in pointing out that 'fighting terror' is a flawed concept, but that sentence jumps out at me as being particularly wrong.

No matter what they were attempting to do, anyone who takes the lives of innocent children as they did is a terrorist fuckwit, plain and simple.

 

[match]

No matter what they were attempting to do, anyone who takes the lives of innocent children as they did is a terrorist fuckwit, plain and simple.

i agree and they should be treated as such. you cannot justify harming and killing children for any reason or cause...

 

[Nick]

In my opinion, the Chechens live in constant fear of invasion. They feel like prisioners in their own country. Put yourself in their shoes. Constantly oppressed by greater Russia despite the independence they proclaim, and Russia denies. I dont know that Russia has much need for Chechnya, does it carry strategic or economic importance? I dont know this, either way they could have provided for a more complete compromise.
In their shoes, i dont know that i'd be that friendly towards the Russians. I would never be one of the terrorists, but i doubt i would find myself unable to understand their stance.
There are greater issues here, and before you condemn the 'terrorists' (one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter) you probably should ask WHY this happened. Seperate this from the deaths that have resulted, look deeper. Too much time is devoted to fighting the spread of terrorism (horrible label for the Chechens, IMHO), and too little time is devoted to reforms that would see 'happy' conclusions to these terrible times.

if russia allowed chechnya its independence then all the different nation groups that live around the russian empire would try the same thing

 

[Iron]

I dont know that Russia has much need for Chechnya, does it carry strategic or economic importance? I dont know this, either way they could have provided for a more complete compromise.

As last person said, it's symbolic to all other ethnic minorities of the Russian Fed. not to try similar. When the USSR collapsed, many many countries had independance and all these states (especially Russia) went through serious economic crap. It's still so bad that countries like Belarussia and Ukraine are considering being economically intergrated with Russia again. Of course, Chechnyan independance wouldn't help them.
Furthermore, Chechnya is important for its oil. Although it's reserves are modest, alot of Russia's regional oil infrastracture centres around Chech.'s capital. There would be serious buggery for Russia if they declared independance.

Most of Chechnyn hate of russia stems from WW2, when locals collaborated with the Nazis, hoping to get independance. After the war, Stalin had around a million of them sent to Siberian work-camps....not a preety situation, but there is certainly no clear answer.

 

[Thomas_wow]

a lot of the states around russia collaberated (spelling) with the nazis to gain independence, except only checnya (spelling again) seems to hold the big grudge.
then again countries like ukraine, belarus etc. dont have much to offer russia, except for good agriculture.

totally off topic, has anyone read the books, Stalingrad or Gulag Archipelago

 

[Iron]

Ukraine and Belarus have plenty. Ukraine especially have enourmous coal reserves, much farmland (more fertile than much of russ.) and has always been a traditional 'buffer zone' for Russia, with loads of infrastructure built there for this purpose. They also have a sizable military, airforce and blacksea fleet (nuclear subs etc.) that were split from Russia after communist fall. It would be a very significant and benificial event if these too would become economically intergrated. Coupled with the fact that democracy and capitalism are adequatly established in the region, it could see the resurfacing of this great power...and who could argue with a balance of power in light of our present mess?

 

[Thomas_wow]

yeah i know, but russia is more interested in oil than in coal. its funny in ukraine, most of the old people want to stay independant, wheras most of the young want to become part of russia again (well thats the impression i get from talking to family).

 

[Iron]

Yeah, I've got a few old Russians in the family and, by some rule, cant stand ukrainians. My grandmother made us leave a Russian restarant once when she found out the cooks were Ukrainian...not that I have anything against them.
But coal is quite valuable commodity whether exported or used domestically...I think the ukrainian figures are around 10 people a week dying in the mines, but it pays well becasue it's tremendously valuable.

 

[Thomas_wow]

yeah, my grandma vehemently claims that ukrainians invented vodka, and that ukrainians are responsible for everything good in eastern europe and that russia is evil. though if you think ukrainian cooks in a russian restraunt gets a bad reaction from the oldies, imagine the reaction of oldies going to the ukrainian club in lidcombe... all the cooks are vietnamese ;]. personally i couldnt give two shits who cooks the food, as long as its good. the only funny thing is when you order a ukr/rus. dish they often have no idea what you are saying and you end up with some asian dish.

the main reason why older russians hate older ukrainians and vice versa, is the russians consider the ukrainians as nazi collaborators (half true, tho same can be said for all countries surrounding russia during ww2. and what russians seem to forget, is that a substantial number of red army troops actually defected to germany during the course of ww2), and old ukrainians hate russians for the hardship, control and banning of ukrainian language/customs during the Soviet Union period.

 

[tattoodguy]

the russsian hostage crisis.




i think the army did welll...... pppple are tooo hard on the russsian government... they did there best......i think its fucked....to try and blame them.



as for the terrorists ----30 guys killed like 600 ppple

thats like 20 each.....thats not bad.... its reasonable..... its strange that....they cant kill more ppppple..............most terrorists are shit.....they always get busted before they......blow things up........they piss me offf..whats wrong with terrorists..there so stupid.

but..timothy mcveigh did like 150 or whatever himself --- he is the king of terrorism i recon. i admire that guy.

even that dude in tassie..he got like 30 or something...........bryant..whatever.

i forgot how many he got..but with just a gun..he did prretty gooood.....


peace

 

[ogmzergrush]

Yeah, way to be a moron. Glorify terrorism why don't you, you're not even worth my time.

 

[tattoodguy]

im not trying to antagonise you, i am not supporting terrorism, but i do appreciate their genius or stupidity and in many cases i admire the dedication and there courage.

most of the time they know they will have to die, it takes alot of balls.

also its goood tv viewing i recon. makes the news more interesting.