Selective schools debate (1 Viewer)

blyatman

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True this is what I thought too but it would be good to see how much the average Asian student actually rote learns. I mean for something like Maths how do you even rote learn anyway? You just do problem after problem and I would say this probably does build creativity. All the worlds creative geniuses in Maths and Physics all started at a very early age and just kept on doing problem after problem to answer their curiosity. Isn't that in essence what they do in Asian countries?

I just have a hard time seeing how one would rote learn for something like Math or Physics etc..
They're doing math to just pass the exam though. Their goal is to answer the question in the way they were taught, and not necessarily coming up with new and innovative ways to answer problems. Can't really use geniuses as an example since they're going to be an outlier. You could've gotten a B6 in the the old physics syllabus by rote learning, since it was all mostly essay-based and regurgitating information (e.g. impacts of von Braun and whatnot). There weren't many questions in the old syllabus that really challenged your understanding. It was mostly testing to see if you knew the material.
 

sida1049

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Learning names of elements, events in history, etc, doesn't qualify as rote learning. We all need to accept the basics before we can move onto my advanced things.
When done so in order to pass an exam, is this not rote-learning? I can no longer recall even the most basic of concepts from chemistry... I vaguely remember a man by the name of Avagardro (is that how you spell his name?), something about his constant, something something number of molecules...?

I guess rote-learning is necessary - mathematicians don't recall how to solve elementary integrals all the time (and a brilliant lecturer I've once had did a fraction over fraction in class, and mentioned he always get those wrong).

That said, I strongly prefer the education system here, not because it's necessarily less rote-learny (I rote-learned the shit out of my HSC), but simply because it's more relaxed.

Perhaps rote-learning isn't such a bad thing after all, especially in China; in order to get accepted into grad school, you have to regurgitate propaganda onto a compulsory ideology exam, so rote-learning here is a way of mechanically detaching yourself from the propaganda while needing to look like you get it.

And in the same way for me, it was a method of mechanically detaching myself from stuff I don't care about to excel.
 

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True this is what I thought too but it would be good to see how much the average Asian student actually rote learns. I mean for something like Maths how do you even rote learn anyway? You just do problem after problem and I would say this probably does build creativity. All the worlds creative geniuses in Maths and Physics started at a very early age and just kept on doing problem after problem to answer their curiosity. Isn't that in essence what they do in Asian countries?

I just have a hard time seeing how one would rote learn for something like Math or Physics etc..
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that certain people are predisposed towards doing well in the HSC, whereas the more "creative" maths that people undertake in university and for example, Olympiads, benefits those that are more predisposed towards "pure" mathematics.

For example, I did really well with respect to maths and physics during high school - largely due to the rote nature of the subjects. But when it came to Olympiads and university maths (which I didn't even undertake - went straight from 4 Maths (as it were known then - showing my age), Phys, Chem, to doing Arts/Law in uni), I would've been a mess.

Finally, I'm sure it's covered above but I'm of the strong belief that the debate about selective schools stems down to racial attributes. People just try to colour it (pardon the pun) by mentioning things like "well-rounded" candidates (ie code). Just my 2c.
 

blyatman

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When done so in order to pass an exam, is this not rote-learning? I can no longer recall even the most basic of concepts from chemistry... I vaguely remember a man by the name of Avagardro (is that how you spell his name?), something about his constant, something something number of molecules...?

I guess rote-learning is necessary - mathematicians don't recall how to solve elementary integrals all the time (and a brilliant lecturer I've once had did a fraction over fraction in class, and mentioned he always get those wrong).

That said, I strongly prefer the education system here, not because it's necessarily less rote-learny (I rote-learned the shit out of my HSC), but simply because it's more relaxed.

Perhaps rote-learning isn't such a bad thing after all, especially in China; in order to get accepted into grad school, you have to regurgitate propaganda onto a compulsory ideology exam, so rote-learning here is a way of mechanically detaching yourself from the propaganda while needing to look like you get it.

And in the same way for me, it was a method of mechanically detaching myself from stuff I don't care about to excel.
Yeah those things require committing things to memory, so you could call it rote learning. However, I was more referring to regurgitating information vs critical thinking. See the section on "vs critical thinking" here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rote_learning (There's also a section on the countries where it's practiced).

I was going to bring up that propaganda issue in China, but decided not to due to its political nature lol. I agree with what you said, though I'm not sure how many are actually detached from it given that they're exposed to it almost 24/7. Media (though slightly biased) also shows that it's effective in brainwashing.

I also rote learnt parts of the hsc. I memorized English essays because I believe it's a useless subject. Likewise, the old science syllabus was very rote learny. However, I reckon math was definitely more about understanding than anything. In regards to the integral example, we have it committed to memory due to the sheer amount of practice that we do. However, I would think most capable students would understand where it comes from and know how to derive it, so I personally wouldn't call it rote learning (though others may disagree).

I suppose the hsc can be rote learny, and the approach will depend on individual students. Those from Asian backgrounds might be more inclined to rote learn due to parental pressure in their very early childhood education, or for whatever other reason (that's just a guess with no basis backing it). However, the education system itself does attempt to promote critical thinking. An example of this is the various essays we've all had to write in the earlier years of high school, which ask us about our opinions on things followed by the justification behind them. Although I hate essays, I acknowledge that these types of activities are helpful in developing critical and independent thought.
 
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I'll give in my 2 cents as I've seen both sides of the spectrum.

In 2015 I sat my selective test and all went well, I made it in but I didn't go, the school was 2 hours away and I just decided to go to my local school, I thought going to a decently ranked school wasn't so important and it really didn't matter, nobody really told me it was going to affect my HSC and I was in Year 6 so I wasn't thinking ahead of time anyways.

Fast forward to now I'm now in a selective school (Transferred in Year 11) after 4 years of pain in a really badly ranked school I can finally compare it now. Sure it takes 1hr 50 mins to get there and I waste so much time on travel, but I'm never going back. Lets talk about my previous school, before 2007 this school never even got a rank, it was that bad and generally gets 1-10 Band 6's a year. Let me begin by saying that if you're in a selective environment you are like 100x better off than a kid that's in a local public school environment (that also wants to succeed), there's obviously a few exceptions, some public schools are okay like Cherrybrook and Carlingford and you can definitely succeed in them, but the majority fall within the 300-400+ ranks. Now I can't speak for every public high school because I reckon my one was really bad, it even came on the news for a fight conducted every year. Here are some of the reasons why a selective school can be so much more advantageous.

1. More motivated students.
2. Way better people in general, your bag won't be attempted to be stolen and your other belongings.
3. More resources in coaching centres, you're automatically placed in better classes because of your school.
4. No fights, people don't act like animals and most people aren't weird at all, compared to the previous school that is.
5. You don't have to make friends with people into "Eshay" culture bullshit or people that are just going to be associated with crime later on in life. People literally carried knives in their bags at school and attempted to steal money off people.
6. You become like the people around you. If you're in a selective environment you work more harder because the people around you do. If you're in a really bad school, (Unless you are very stubborn) in some way you will become like them too.
7. You have to take initiative and study on your own, you can't simply ask the kid next to you what he's up to and try to race up to what's he has completed.
8. You don't have to act solo and alone. To do well in my previous school you're going to literally have to be solo if you want to do well in the HSC, it means that you shouldn't be talking to anyone or chatting at recess or lunch because of heavy distraction of non-study related conversations and activies. Instead you should be using every spare time to study and using every bit of your time to do well, in the end you don't have the same resources as a kid in a selective or good ranking school so you will need to use more time in study to get equivalent results. This means studying ahead of the syllabus by a year to keep a safety net.

Initially when I was in my local school I hated it so much, but since I've moved I hate it even more even though I'm not even there anymore, I've realised how good it is outside of there. These are some of the points I can come up with, there's obviously so much more that I can't think of right now as i've written this briefly . Note that i compared this with my previous school and it does look a bit exaggerated but I assure you it is not. Maybe not all public schools are like this and it was just my previous school.
 

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Ppl shitting on selective schools for performing well is utter bullsht. The HSC school ranking says it all. Priv schools cant relate, or can but the $$ is excessive. All the karens can keep hating. Even speaking as an ex-student from a private catholic school
 

pikachu975

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Ppl shitting on selective schools for performing well is utter bullsht. The HSC school ranking says it all. Priv schools cant relate, or can but the $$ is excessive. All the karens can keep hating. Even speaking as an ex-student from a private catholic school
Yeah tbh private schools do cost a lot and I'm not even sure if it's worth it but I definitely don't regret going to my school over a selective one (didn't do the selective test so idk) because the teachers were good. From what I've heard, selective school teachers aren't like the best but people often learn from tutoring most of the time since lots of them have tutors. Not sure how true this is since I didn't go to a selective school and obvs there's outliers but yea... people hating on selective schools for doing well is pretty dumb - they all work hard and a competitive environment enhances that !

1. More motivated students.
Agree with this one heavily tbh. I went to a catholic/private school ranked around the 50s and there was still a bunch of motivated students which was good, but yea it definitely impacts you.
 

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Yeah tbh private schools do cost a lot and I'm not even sure if it's worth it but I definitely don't regret going to my school over a selective one (didn't do the selective test so idk) because the teachers were good. From what I've heard, selective school teachers aren't like the best but people often learn from tutoring most of the time since lots of them have tutors. Not sure how true this is since I didn't go to a selective school and obvs there's outliers but yea... people hating on selective schools for doing well is pretty dumb - they all work hard and a competitive environment enhances that !



Agree with this one heavily tbh. I went to a catholic/private school ranked around the 50s and there was still a bunch of motivated students which was good, but yea it definitely impacts you.
Yeah I totally agree with you;; I don't have any regrets going to a catholic school (ranked like 150??), but i feel like if you were to weigh out the "better" than selective will always remain top tier. but again, yeah you can achieve any atar no matter what ur ranking/school is.

ALSO, spending ur time at 5 am in the morning on boredofstudies??? haha go to sleep
 

pikachu975

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Yeah I totally agree with you;; I don't have any regrets going to a catholic school (ranked like 150??), but i feel like if you were to weigh out the "better" than selective will always remain top tier. but again, yeah you can achieve any atar no matter what ur ranking/school is.

ALSO, spending ur time at 5 am in the morning on boredofstudies??? haha go to sleep
Yeah true I always wondered what it woulda been like to go to a selective school, but my cohort was amazing like everyone worked together 24/7 and the amount of collaboration was so good so defs no regrets!!

Also yea HAHA i woke up at midnight and was finding any way to procrastinate from studying as usual :'((
 

idkkdi

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Yeah true I always wondered what it woulda been like to go to a selective school, but my cohort was amazing like everyone worked together 24/7 and the amount of collaboration was so good so defs no regrets!!

Also yea HAHA i woke up at midnight and was finding any way to procrastinate from studying as usual :'((
We got dickheads who won't share notes, because internal rankings are harder than externals. Depends where you're at, at some places people pride themselves on toxicity. It's quite amusing and annoying at times.

Collaboration is split into four groups.
1. The top ranks that hoard together to try maximise their internal rankings.
2. The lower ranks trying to pull through together.
3. The middle ranks who help others.
4. The middle ranks who don't help others.
 

pikachu975

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We got dickheads who won't share notes, because internal rankings are harder than externals. Depends where you're at, at some places people pride themselves on toxicity. It's quite amusing and annoying at times.

Collaboration is split into four groups.
1. The top ranks that hoard together to try maximise their internal rankings.
2. The lower ranks trying to pull through together.
3. The middle ranks who help others.
4. The middle ranks who don't help others.
Ah yeah that makes sense I did hear people being selfish/snaking others from selective schools during high school and I was kinda surprised since my school (catholic school) was pretty collaborative. I guess yeah internal rankings are more competitive for you so it makes sense that some people would won't share anything but imo working together is way way way more helpful than being selfish tbh. Like even though I was coming 1st in biology I still spammed the group chat with so many questions which helped me but also helped others consolidate their knowledge. But yea I guess you're right that it depends where you're at since collaboration varies depending on the person/group/school!
 

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In countries like Australia, there aren't really good schools and bad schools, there are good students and bad students. Replacing the students of a 'good' school with low IQ students will turn it into a 'bad' school.
 

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and I say this as someone who went to a comically bad school and now has post grad engineering qualifications
 

#RoadTo31Atar

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In countries like Australia, there aren't really good schools and bad schools, there are good students and bad students. Replacing the students of a 'good' school with low IQ students will turn it into a 'bad' school.
There is not much of a difference between good and bad schools if our education as a whole isn't very good.
 

SylviaB

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There is not much of a difference between good and bad schools if our education as a whole isn't very good.
Uhhh no, you've got it backwards. If the education system is bad, then the bad schools are really bad. Australia's education system is good, which means there's very few really bad school. It could be a lot better, but its still better than most countries, and intelligent students can succeed in most schools.
 

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There is not much of a difference between good and bad schools if our education as a whole isn't very good.
'bad' education systems are made that way by shit students bruh not the other way round

wtf does it even matter when 2/3rds of ppl just end up working at petrol stations and nail salons anyway education beyond literacy and basic numeracy is overrated af
 

SylviaB

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'bad' education systems are made that way by shit students bruh not the other way round

wtf does it even matter when 2/3rds of ppl just end up working at petrol stations and nail salons anyway education beyond literacy and basic numeracy is overrated af
tbf only around 10% of adult workers on are minimum wage

but dumb people benefit from skills, not education
 

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