Should 2 time Loser KIM BEAZLEY be new Labour Leader?? (1 Viewer)

[neo o]

I was hoping that someone would pick up my tab, I miss rorix and GWB =*(. So here we go.

NB : Still replying, my comp is on the blinker so im posting half now

Please elaborate as I was unaware of this?

France et al, irregular use of veto powers, because of vested interest in Iraq i.e cheap oil.

Thats right people do make choices, neo. But Hans Blix said that Saddam had destroyed the weapons meaning they were NOT THERE. Howard and bush told us in no uncertain terms that they were, remember?

GOOD IDEA! THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT SHOULD ACT ON THE "OPINION" and I stress OPINION of one man, instead of their own intelligence agencies. BECAUSE HANS BLIX SAYS SOMETHING, DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE, when you say "Hans Blix said that Sadaam had destroyed the weapons meaning they were NOT THERE" it shows that for some strange reason you believe whatever Blix says MUST BE TRUE, EVEN AN OPINION NOT BASED ON FACTS, JUST PAST EXPERIENCE. Wierd.

No. I'd be thankful that the government of my country hadn't been somewhat responsible for the unnecessary deaths of thousands of innocent iraqis

Like the (then) Iraqi government?

did even assuming weapons did exist. But seeing as no evidence of weapons existed this was a hard and unreasonable thing to assume in the first place.

So let me get this straight. In hindsight, even if WMDs were found, you STILL wouldn't support this invasion. Are you a terrorist sympathiser? Do you support terrorism?

And AGAIN with the "THE WEAPONS NEVER EXISTED" crap. JUST BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T FOUND DOESN'T MEAN THEY DON'T EXIST. Xayma showed you a picture of about 40 FUCKING MIG JETS that were buried in the sand, i think Sadaam and his government could manage to bury a few hundred sarin grenades.

This is a ridiculous line of argument which I won't bother responding to

I'll take that to mean that you can't.

yeah i do. And just like the UN I don't think these points justify the invasion of another country.

Genocide, mass murder, oppression, sponsorship of terrorism, abuse of UN sanctions (Sadaam skimmed from the top of the oil for food program for example, which was designed by the UN to block him from getting the cash to buy weapons, but provide his people with medicines and food.) et al aren't reason enough to liberate a country?

Still proving shit all and not a justification for invasion.

Actually, sarin is a UN prohibited nerve gas. While you may choose to ignore the obvious, missile casings are a component in the manufacture of prohibited missiles. Shit all?

Under Whitlam we had free universities (which if you ask me is enough to make all the points you raised miniscule and irrelevant)

I guess a big fat wallet is all some people think about though.

This is an example of irony. Would you perhaps be thinking of your own wallet there?

So what if keating thought Australia was the arse end of the world.

So what if the leader of our country hated Australia and it's people!

He was a scholar and a brilliant, witty, talented man which is more than i can say for the dull pipsqueak your siding with.

Let's value the worth of a politian, their party and their policies on how exciting they are. GOOD IDEA. Unlike you, not everyone votes on a prospective leaders "coolness" (see Kerry + Springstean)

Keating was commited to reconciliation

For what?

he beleived Australia needed to improve relations with Asia.

Like when he called Mahatir "recalcitrant" and caused Malaysia to block Australian entrance into ASEAN (the regional trade bloc) until his (Mahatir's) resignation? On the other hand we have Howard who has ... Signed FTAs with Thailand and Singapore, layed the framework for an FTA with China, and has actually been able to initiate talks to gain entrance into ASEAN.

He was an engaging, intellegent and bright speaker. People were just threatened by him because his intellegence made them feel inferior and so they labelled him arrogant.

People hated him because he viewed THEM as inferior.

As for howard being patriotic- its that kind of jingoistic patriotism that makes me feel even more disgusted by him and ashamed to be Australian.

To tell you the truth I'd much rather a leader who loved this country then thought of it as the "arse end of the world" (Keating) as I've already pointed out. If you're ashamed by your leader loving his country, I doubt you ever did, will or were proud to be an Australian.

I have come to the conclusion that Howard is a racist, fear inspiring bigot from my observations of this government's polocies

(the continuation of mandatory detention

If whites cruised in to the country on boats im sure they'd be locked up too. It has everything to do with border protection and nothing to do with racism.

the closure of ATSIC

Closed because of corruption, not racial hatred.

the refusal to apologise to indigenous Australians

For what? Also, I don't see how refusing to apologise to someone for something that he didn't do is indicitive of racial hatred.

negative comments made in parliament about asian immigration before he was elected prime minister

80's : “I think there are some people who believe it is. I wouldn’t like to see it greater, I am not in favour of going back to a White Australia policy. I do believe that if it is in the eyes of some in the community, it’s too great, it would be in our immediate term interest and supportive of social cohesion if it were slowed down a little, so that the capacity of the community to absorb was greater.”

I assume that's the quote you're referring to, and to tell you the truth I see no hint of racism there. But I'm not as good as you at making something out of nothing. His comments about asians being the "small business backbone" of Australia also don't seem like what a man with a hatred of asians would say.

and the various fear campaigns

(about interest rates,

The Labor party has a poor track record in regards to economic management, it would be stupid NOT to capitalise upon it.

about terrorism

THERE IS NO TERRORISM! lol, idiot. btw, what campaigns?

about immigration

Fear? Immigration?

which he has inflicted on us to gain re election time and time again.

I'm not sure if asqy said it in this thread, but he was pretty accurate imo when he said the rise and fall of governments is determined by the state of the economy, we've had 16? years of economic growth, and quite a bit is the result of the Howard governments ability to initiate microreform and maintain the economy.

 

[neo o]

yeah i agree with miaomiao...

Raiks, you're right about uni go-ers theoretically earning more

B Music (composition) for me will NOT guarantee "big bucks" or food on the table. I'll be relying on a second "career path" most of the time to do so.

I'm not really complaining about that because I choose to do that degree anyway so no, i won't be earning as much as you hot shot confident people think I, or yourselves, will be earning.

Besides, after uni, it doesnt guarantee financial success, so hush hush.

I know you're merely pointing out that you should give for what you receive, which i totally understand, but yeah. Theoretically people with degrees should be earning more after, but that is hell not the case.

Incorrect, you can work anywhere that someone without a degree could + places only open to someone with your qualifications. You have more options, more opportunities etc.

 

[Phanatical]

A BMus (Comp.) degree is considered worthless. It hardly opens up more opportunities, those that it Does are the not-paying gigs that I keep getting asked to do. In fact, the one career path that the BMus (Comp.) offers us is to be a Lecturer of Composition. Maybe one of us will even become Chair of Composition one day, but that's about as much as we can expect from our qualification.

 

[neo o]

HECS is only one of the side effects of there not being enough funding for universites. Some others include rundown facilities and the need to have more full fee and

overseas full fee paying students

Are you racist? I thought you were into egalitarianism and a "fair go for all" or is that only when YOU are concerned? Don't foreigners have a right to study at Australian universities?

instead of local ones to pay for the ruuning of the uni.

If the government funded our unis adequately, there wouldn't be a need for overseas full fee paying students (and hence more places for local students and lower HECS), better facilities, better pay for university staff.

I shudder to think at how much you think "adequate" funding is.

But this government doesn't value education, at least not for the poor.

Sure it does, you pay them back when you aren't poor.

You seem to think that people go to uni with the soul aim of making big bucks when they get out. This may be true for you but for some others university is more about getting an education, learning, thinking and hopefully improving society with the knowledge that they gain.

Regardless of their motives a degree makes someone more employable, increases their chances of earning a higher wage in the future, and thus they should foot the bill (when they can afford to pay it).

Why shouldn't the government pay for what will ultimately benefit society?

A university education doesn't benefit society, it benefits YOU, it increases YOUR future income.

Because the Liberal party isn't interested in those kinds of 'progressive' ideas.

Correct, the Liberal party isn't interested in the "free ride" approach. If you want to earn extra income later, you need to make an investment now.

Why shouldn't the government pay for the education of the society which votes for it? Because John Howard wants to keep society uneducated and dumb so that he will continue to be re elected.

Under this illogic, you'd be a liberal voter.

If you pay HECS upfront, you pay less than those who pay it back when they leave uni meaning that people with rich parents who can afford to do this get a better deal. TALK ABOUT THE RICH GETTING RICHER AND THE POOR GETTING POORER!

If they have the money why shouldn't they? Either way you leave university with the same degree.

Have you ever even thought about the obvious inequality of full fee UAI cutoffs versus HECS cutoffs?

Supply and demand.

This inequality which benefits those who can afford such hefty fees is a result of LACK OF FUNDING.

No, it's a result of supply and demand.

I know of many families that would gladly like to see their Tax spent on higher education instead of funding the invasion of Iraq and detention centres in the middle of the desert.

I also know many families that resent that 48% of tax dollars are spent upon social security. How do you feel about social security miao miao?

There are some Australians who realise that a budget surplus isn't the great economic acheivement Howard makes it out to be and that it is only a result of his refusal to fund national institutions such as universities... the money is there Raiks, that isn't the issue.

The budget surplus is negligable, it's so wafer thin that it almost isn't there. In regards to spending Howard is pushing the evelope already in regards to inflation. Spending needs to be re allocated instead of increased. BTW : For an apparent advocate of the poor you don't really seem to consider inflation. Increased spending will contribute to inflationary pressures. Inflation reduces the value of real income, hitting the poor the hardest, since they don't have income sinks.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

On the adequate funding point.. i just got back from fiji, there there is no government funding for education... families work hard to send one of their kids through school and get them an education, but i never saw any of them complaining - they just worked hard and got it done.

 

[ur_inner_child]

Incorrect, you can work anywhere that someone without a degree could + places only open to someone with your qualifications. You have more options, more opportunities etc.

well wasn't that a broad rebuttal! Well done with the further replies in this thread after this one, seriously, I repped you for it, but that one was so broad, and general, which was JUST what I meant, about it being "theoretical" and "generally speaking". Perhaps "generally speaking" yes, I totally agree but no.

I can be a music composer without this degree.

We can argue all day about me going to uni to be a "better composer" but I'd warn you not to considering music is so subjective out in the industry.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Yes Asquithian while i feel that is true for them to get power... baring some sort of scandal, it would be good to have a stronger opposition that gets people to sometimes disagree with the government for instance on economic matters.

 

[neo o]

well wasn't that a broad rebuttal! Well done with the further replies in this thread after this one, seriously, I repped you for it, but that one was so broad, and general, which was JUST what I meant, about it being "theoretical" and "generally speaking". Perhaps "generally speaking" yes, I totally agree but no.

I can be a music composer without this degree.

We can argue all day about me going to uni to be a "better composer" but I'd warn you not to considering music is so subjective out in the industry.

When you HAVE a degree, you have more than someone who doesn't. I don't see how you can argue against that.

 

[absolution*]

Am i the only one who cannot seem to find the correlation between war and liberty with respect to Iraq?

 

[ur_inner_child]

When you HAVE a degree, you have more than someone who doesn't. I don't see how you can argue against that.

Wasnt the point something about "theoretically earning more" than someone who doesnt have a degree? (refer to raiks' post)

And I said I agreed that earning more money than one without a degree was theoretical. Not about having "more". Which is what miaomiao pointed out, about education, learning and thinking as well.

Sounds like you're siding with miaomiao, so we're on the same side really.

hahaha.

Anyway, to repeat my point, yes raiks, it is theoretically true that a person will earn more than one who doesn't.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

The idea is that they've decided since they went to war, that now they might as well give the people some more liberty by installing a democratic government that doesn't oppress its people.
Of course another question would be, if america can do this (which i believe in the long term they could in some form), would the nation they build be better for america, or worse?
I'm pretty sure it'll be worse..

 

[neo o]

why wont anyone look at my e penis!

Give me some time and I'll get around to slapping you around with mine!

 

[breaking]

why wont anyone look at my e penis!

omg austin! haven't seen that pic in a while

 

[hiphophorray123]

Am i the only one who cannot seem to find the correlation between war and liberty with respect to Iraq?

no your not

 

[chubbaraff]

Free Education

On the issue of Free Education, the Government has a responsibility to create eduatio that is free at all levels it is the backbone of our society. Without education we are, were not and will be ... nothing! European countries seem to value education much more, you pay a tax of couple of hundred dollars for the year and your in. The commodification of Higher Education is offensive because it is indicitive of a ragime who believes that uni places are akin to the importation of Grain or the exportation of Beef. For me the scandinavians have got it right, 65% tax, free education, free thought, thought is the greatest gift you can give to someone and the liberals cant see that.... they fight for an australia where the market and its victims reign supreme. So tell me ... How do you reduce welfae dependency... education... how do you foster a society of goodwill ... education... it all comes back to education. Pity you guys cant see that, in some countries its ok to learn advanced mathematics for the sake of being educated as opposed to being an uneducated hick, whether it increases income or not.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

You find for me someone who wants education and can't get it in australia..

 

[miaomiao]

Are you racist? I thought you were into egalitarianism and a "fair go for all" or is that only when YOU are concerned? Don't foreigners have a right to study at Australian universities?

No I'm not racist- I'm Chinese like the majority of overseas full fee paying students here at the moment. I am into egalitarianism and a fair go for all- for myself and for others. 'Foreigners' do have a right to study at Australian Universities but not at the expense of Local HECS students with higher entry scores than them and probably less money. Not all overseas students or 'foreigners' have the 'right' to study here anyway only the wealthy full fee paying ones.

I shudder to think at how much you think "adequate" funding is.

The feeling is mutual- I shudder to think at how much you think adequate funding is

Sure it is (fair), you pay them back when you aren't poor

At a higher rate than people who were rich to start with- not fair actually.

Regardless of their motives a degree makes someone more employable and thus they should foot the bill (when they can afford to pay it).

Why? Just because your educated and employable doesn't make you indebted to the government or society, it makes you an active and beneficial member of society who the government is (supposed to be) there to support in the first place.

A university education doesn't benefit society, it benefits YOU, it increases YOUR future income.

So teachers doctors, nurses, scientists, the legal system, understanding of history and culture- they all don't benefit society? What kind of square-box, concrete world are you living in? I just have to look around at my high school teachers to realise that going to university does little to increase your income if your profession is grossly undervalued.

Correct, the Liberal party isn't interested in the "free ride" approach. If you want to earn extra income later, you need to make an investment now.
If they have the money why shouldn't they? Either way you leave university with the same degree.
Supply and demand.
No, it's a result of supply and demand.

Typical neo conservative approach(ha! goes with your name! ) Commoditize everything to the lowest common denominator so even universities- sacred institutions of learning and knowledge- are another part of the capitalist world. Chant after me: supply and demand, supply and demand... buy, sell, buy, sell. Get your head off the floor of Wall Street and back to the campus mate.

The budget surplus is negligable, it's so wafer thin that it almost isn't there.

That’s not what Howard was saying a few months back at election time.
Onto Howard and his racism…

His comments about asians being the "small business backbone" of Australia also don't seem like what a man with a hatred of asians would say.

His comments are probably more to do with his wanting to be re elected than his love and admiration of Asian business owners. If it was on the cards Howard would treat Asians with the same lack of respect he shows for the Arabic Muslim community.

THERE IS NO TERRORISM! lol, idiot. btw, what campaigns?

Of course there’s terrorism, there’s always been terrorism but why respond to it now when it’s been going on since the beginning of time. Don’t you recall Howard telling us that asylum seekers were potential terrorists and to watch out for Muslim girls wearing head scarves because they could be hiding bombs underneath them? EVERYONE, BE ALERT BUT NOT ALARMED! VOTE FOR ME OR YOU’LL ALL GET BLOWN UP! - That’s the campaign I’m talking about and the general ongoing maintenance of a climate of fear in the hearts and minds of gullible citizens. Also, you’re an arrogant asshole insult someone you can see.

To tell you the truth I'd much rather a leader who loved this country then thought of it as the "arse end of the world" (Keating) as I've already pointed out. If you're ashamed by your leader loving his country, I doubt you ever did, will or were proud to be an Australian.

You go on thinking that Howard loves this country while he attaches himself to George Bush’s ass and bows down to the Americans whenever he can. I’ll be proud to be Australian the day my fellow citizens kick Howard out of office and someone worthy takes his place.

 

[chubbaraff]

I heard a statistic that 65% of women aged 55 in 2030 or somthing would not have repayed their hecs debt... i know heeps of arts students who can't afford proper transport, cycle 10km every day to uni on their broken bike because they dont have, daddy like many liberals do to buy them car and fuel and live away from uni because they cant afford the rent and are on the margins with food because there allowances are inadequate. We should be encouraging people to get an education... not to join the workforce, they can do that if they wish but the primary reason for eduaction is not to train the workforce but to give someone the gift of knowledge, that the liberals see know value in, within their pseudo american patriot australia they are trying to build... SHAME!

 

[chubbaraff]

In cross reading of my pervious post it appears as though i meant we should be encouraging people to not join the workforce, what i meant was that is they get a high paying job that is incidental, but the primary reason for education is to benefit society as a whole.