SMH article: offers below cutoff (2 Viewers)

[Paradoxica]

Well you don't know it won't have no practical applications – a lot of areas of pure maths from the past were considered to be forever 'useless', but are now used heavily in our lives, e.g. prime numbers for encryption etc. Do you actually want the things you do to have no practical application, or do you simply not care whether they turn out to have applications or not?

I don't care, but I also would rather not because I haven't dealt with publicity before, and I don't want to.

 

[Dupain]

NSW universities have defended their admissions procedures against reports in the Sydney Morning Herald that low-ATAR students are being admitted in high proportions to competitive degrees such as law.



On Wednesday, SMH published a story claiming that NSW universities were admitting students with ATARs as low as 30 into courses.

Drawing on “confidential university data”, SMH reported that a high proportion of students admitted to law did not have an ATAR score above the cut-off.

More than 90 per cent of offers for law degrees at UNSW (combined law), Macquarie University (law) and Western Sydney University (business/law) were made to students with ATARs below the cut-off, according to SMH.

The University of Sydney made 41 per cent of offers for combined law to students with ATARs below the cut-off of 99.5.

Speaking with Lawyers Weekly, UNSW Law dean Professor David Dixon (pictured) said the “shock, horror story” was flawed.

“In their enthusiasm for a story, they haven’t worked out the difference between raw ATAR and entry level,” he said.

Professor Dixon said the ‘raw’ ATAR, reported by SMH, is not the determining factor for whether students are accepted into law.

The entry level score, which is the ATAR including additional points granted by the university, is a better indicator, he explained.

These additional points are granted under schemes that take into account Aboriginality, socio-economic disadvantage and strong performance in extra-curricular activities.

Professor Dixon said the ATAR cut-off for law is high precisely because UNSW does not set quotas limiting the number of students accepted under these schemes.

He said that relying solely on ATAR scores in admission processes “would reproduce the structural disadvantages in our schools”.

Professor Dixon pointed out that the median raw ATAR of students admitted to combined law at UNSW was 98.28, only 1.42 below the cut-off.

 

[Ununoctium]

From what I understand, that's not necessarily the actual reasoning of EAP points. The concept behind allowing extra-curricular performance to compensate for academic underperformance is that those who fall into the category of "elite" have such a large commitment to their chosen sport, instrument, etc. that this has been a detriment to their HSC performance. That is, should they not have done whatever extra-curricular, they would have had more time to study and as such received a high enough ATAR for their course. Obviously this is not a perfect measure by any means in that students who may not be 'elite' but very high tier in several different ventures simultaneously may actually be expending more effort than those who only do one extra-curricular to an 'elite' level. Similarly, it is clearly going to be an imperfect measure of the amount of effort expended by students and the level of study they forgo in becoming 'elite'. On the other hand, this does also serve to increase a university's candidature of 'well rounded' individuals which would be positive for the sporting and cultural environment of the university, as you suggest.

Personally I agree with (I think it was) soulful in this thread who criticised EAP points for the fact that these are students training to be mathematicians or engineers or policy experts, not whatever their sport is, and so this should not be relevant to their selection. The rebuttal to this is of course what I see to be the primary reason for EAP points - compensation for time spent unable to study. I do think Usyd probably does better than unsw by having a tighter EAP scheme though. For the most part, students do not act against their academic interests in their extra-curriculars unless they are genuinely committed to an elite level.

I'd argue that EAP points are rewarded both for the compensation for academic under-performance, as you have mentioned, AND for acknowledging achievement, so as to attract a more all-rounded cohort. UNSW has made it clear that their EAP program was more generous because they wanted to encourage and reward extra-curricular involvement. However, I believe USyd's EAP program leans more towards that 'compensation for study time lost' idea, which accounts for why it is more condensed than UNSW's EAP program.

I agree that the EAP program is flawed, as Soulful has elucidated. This is why I enthusiastically support UNSW's introduction of the LAT.

I'd agree with this. I'd say we should be moving towards the application systems used by the elite US and UK unis. Whilst it is a pain to complete multiple supplementary essays and an interview for each university, in the long run I think it would be effective in selecting the students who are truly the best. Interviewing for law is slightly troublesome in that many solicitors may never have to talk to clients whilst most medical doctors will have to at some stage (correct me if I'm wrong aspiring med students), but it would be an effective method of weeding out those doing the degree for prestige or just as a generalist degree.

Just to add, interviewing candidates would allow them to talk about their elite achievements (that EAP would normally consider) as well as their legal interests and passions, or anything else that they feel relevant. It just seems like a win-win for everyone.

 

[Nailgun]

I don't care, but I also would rather not because I haven't dealt with publicity before, and I don't want to.

What if the things you do have practical applications after you die its win win for humanity and paradoxica

 

[Paradoxica]

What if the things you do have practical applications after you die its win win for humanity and paradoxica

As long as it's post mortem, I'm cool with that. I have sanity issues, and any publicity will likely affect me tremendously.

 

[RishBonjour99]

software jobs, especially the higher end ones

If you think top junior software engineers work 37.5 hours a week, you have no idea what you're talking about. Hours for juniors is slightly less than banking.

I don't care, but I also would rather not because I haven't dealt with publicity before, and I don't want to.

How exactly does practical application go with publicity. I can't help but think you're imagining you'll come up with some great theory that will be all over the news and get public praise. Statistically, that's unlikely. Even if it happens - it isn't hard for you to simply let the uni claim credit (which most universities do' and just say 'researchers' at the uni found X. You won't have paparazzi following you around.

 

[moonbear129]

i know of a local student either this year or last year who got into unsw med with 100 umat but a 95 atar..despite their min being 96..although she did do the interview early in november (before the the atar results came out) because her predicted was obviously a lot higher..but the point is that she still got accepted.. and there's a handful of people that meet the requirements but fail to get accepted..

 

[Flop21]

What does this mean, cut offs change every year, so if people got admitted at a certain lower ATAR than last year, then obviously the cut off was lower this year??