Sydney’s median house price to hit $2m, Perth $1m by 2027 (1 Viewer)

[Duskheaven]

To answer:

1) I am a mid-level public servant (a senior individual contributor, not a manager), I make above average wage but certainly not the top-3%.
2) My mum is a secretary, Dad is a blue collar worker (he has a trade but doesn't use it). Between them they dropped out of school in Year 9 and 10 respectively. They have done well with property, however their liquidity is fair pedestrian. My parents situation is hardly unique.
3) I went to the local catholic school and throughout our upbringing, we were constantly told to work hard and save our money. Why? Because my grandparents grew up in abject poverty - not the Australian kind, but the third world kind. They didn't want their children to experience the same. On a tangent, my partner is an Anglo-Australian and culturally, they dont seem to have any drive when it comes to finances or building better lives. I grew up with immigrants (Italians, Greeks, Arabs, Viets, Chinese, Indians etc) and almost universally, these ethnics had a determination to succeed in life and get ahead financially. Aussies on the other hand just coast through life with an IDGAF attitude. This probably why its always a Darlene Jones on ACA complaining about not being able to afford rent, not a Bu Jinwang or a Gianpiero Calluzzi (hell Darlene is probably one of their tenants).
4) Im 31 with no children - if I had children before I was financially capable, that isn't anyone else's fault but my own.
5) I invest for cash-flow primarily, not capital gain. So I've probably seen a total increase in value of around 15-20%.
6) I did rent for two years whilst my partner and I built our new home and I agree, it sucks. Hence why I knuckled down and worked hard to avoid that being anything other than a temporary necessity.
7) My parents went guarantor, which was a huge help I will admit. However, it probably saved me around 12 months total, so not the difference between success and failure

Im not saying everyone can do this - my partner grew up with very little. Furthermore, due to her home-life she needed to move out at 18. In her situation, I agree there is very little one can do. It would have been significantly more difficult for her to own a home given those circumstances.

As I said above, staying at home for as long as possible is probably the best thing you can do in terms of setting yourself up financially and buying property. The reality is, many people have this option but they choose not to exercise it because they want their independence or whatever. Furthermore, there are some great affordable properties out there, you can get a 2-1-1 unit 15-20 minutes from the Canberra CBD for around $320k. This is very affordable for a lot of people, however good luck finding anyone other than an investor to purchase it. People just arent willing to settle and be realistic.

I have all the time in the world for people like my partner who are doomed by circumstance. I have no time for those who have decent circumstances but make bad decisions and complain when they cant get their financial act together.

1.

To answer:

1) I am a mid-level public servant (a senior individual contributor, not a manager), I make above average wage but certainly not the top-3%.
2) My mum is a secretary, Dad is a blue collar worker (he has a trade but doesn't use it). Between them they dropped out of school in Year 9 and 10 respectively. They have done well with property, however their liquidity is fair pedestrian. My parents situation is hardly unique.
3) I went to the local catholic school and throughout our upbringing, we were constantly told to work hard and save our money. Why? Because my grandparents grew up in abject poverty - not the Australian kind, but the third world kind. They didn't want their children to experience the same. On a tangent, my partner is an Anglo-Australian and culturally, they dont seem to have any drive when it comes to finances or building better lives. I grew up with immigrants (Italians, Greeks, Arabs, Viets, Chinese, Indians etc) and almost universally, these ethnics had a determination to succeed in life and get ahead financially. Aussies on the other hand just coast through life with an IDGAF attitude. This probably why its always a Darlene Jones on ACA complaining about not being able to afford rent, not a Bu Jinwang or a Gianpiero Calluzzi (hell Darlene is probably one of their tenants).
4) Im 31 with no children - if I had children before I was financially capable, that isn't anyone else's fault but my own.
5) I invest for cash-flow primarily, not capital gain. So I've probably seen a total increase in value of around 15-20%.
6) I did rent for two years whilst my partner and I built our new home and I agree, it sucks. Hence why I knuckled down and worked hard to avoid that being anything other than a temporary necessity.
7) My parents went guarantor, which was a huge help I will admit. However, it probably saved me around 12 months total, so not the difference between success and failure

Im not saying everyone can do this - my partner grew up with very little. Furthermore, due to her home-life she needed to move out at 18. In her situation, I agree there is very little one can do. It would have been significantly more difficult for her to own a home given those circumstances.

As I said above, staying at home for as long as possible is probably the best thing you can do in terms of setting yourself up financially and buying property. The reality is, many people have this option but they choose not to exercise it because they want their independence or whatever. Furthermore, there are some great affordable properties out there, you can get a 2-1-1 unit 15-20 minutes from the Canberra CBD for around $320k. This is very affordable for a lot of people, however good luck finding anyone other than an investor to purchase it. People just arent willing to settle and be realistic.

I have all the time in the world for people like my partner who are doomed by circumstance. I have no time for those who have decent circumstances but make bad decisions and complain when they cant get their financial act together.

2. I think Sydneysiders with property owning parents don't know how good they have it - they all think they are normal. The majority of Australians don't actually have access to these high-paying city jobs without renting. (but I will assume you have all the time in the world for this demographic)
3. "Ethnics" generally do out achive anglo-Australian - as their parents on average have made large jumps in their own socioeconomic mobility, they expect the same of their children. But, they are definetely still feeling it. I do engineering, and, most of my friends were international students. The ones that managed to stay on, all engineers, are all ”complaining" despite having a far higher income than average for their age. For the non-anglo-Australians, haven't heard good things but I'm not in frequent contact.
4. In regards to children, it should be an expectation that the vast majority of young people are financially stable enough to have 2-3 children within a woman's natural fertility range to reach replacement levels. You are successful - and an outlier - yet you're also 29, so ... although you are still within this range, you are edging closer and closer to this point, so it is likely this cannot be replicated on a socital scale. Any pushbacks (such as not being able to stay at home, or, not getting the guarantor could've set you back beyond this point, 15-20% increase in values etc) could definitely put you beyond this point.
5. 15-20% is definitely on the low end but still represents a large increase in terms of how far it would off-set young people, especially considering highschool students will likely not be predicting the 15-20% increase that has occured now, but, the increase that will occur after they are employed. OFC, they could buy even further out, but, it is to be seen as to if this is as good of an investment.
6. Your wealth generation stratergy is banking on rental prices and property prices being stable (and perhaps your parents actually being a guarantor if needed. It is a lot of risk which had paid off for you, but, it won't always.
7. Definitely benefit from having the WFH job. This, again, greatly reduces your expenses as you can work further away from city centres & travel costs. WFH jobs can't be replicated on a societal scale (and are hard to obtain purposefully even on a individual level).

 

[synthesisFR]

If you don't believe me, ask my partner what she prefers, this life or the yolo, paycheck to paycheck instability she grew up with.

bet just drop her @
(is jk dont ban me pls)

 

[enoilgam]

what's it like working from home 5 days per week (or working remotely)? curious

When the pandemic first hit, I hated it. However, after the first wave I went back a couple days a week and that opened my eyes to how much better WFH is in general. Like, the office is nowhere near the social hub that it was pre-COVID. Also, the whole idea of in-office work being more "collaborative" is kind of rubbish for a lot of professions - I swear on the odd-occasion I do go to the office, people have no interest in collaborating. They put their headphones on and ignore everyone else. To top it all off, when I was in the office, I was frequently being called into Teams meetings. Like, if I want to sit on Teams meetings and not be able to talk to anyone, Ill do it from the comfort of my own home (for far less cost).

On a practical level, as you get older it is also very beneficial. My partner is an ICU Nurse who does shift, so because I WFH I can get a lot done and take the load off her. It was also great when we were building because I could head out on site at a moments notice to deal with the builder.

 

[scaryshark09]

When the pandemic first hit, I hated it. However, after the first wave I went back a couple days a week and that opened my eyes to how much better WFH is in general. Like, the office is nowhere near the social hub that it was pre-COVID. Also, the whole idea of in-office work being more "collaborative" is kind of rubbish for a lot of professions - I swear on the odd-occasion I do go to the office, people have no interest in collaborating. They put their headphones on and ignore everyone else. To top it all off, when I was in the office, I was frequently being called into Teams meetings. Like, if I want to sit on Teams meetings and not be able to talk to anyone, Ill do it from the comfort of my own home (for far less cost).

On a practical level, as you get older it is also very beneficial. My partner is an ICU Nurse who does shift, so because I WFH I can get a lot done and take the load off her. It was also great when we were building because I could head out on site at a moments notice to deal with the builder.

I feel like when ur young, going into the office is beneficial. If you have a young and vibrant team, you can make friends and collaborate. If they're older, you can learn and pickup on small things over time that they have gained from experience.

once you get older, i understand why WFH would be better.

 

[enoilgam]

I feel like when ur young, going into the office is beneficial. If you have a young and vibrant team, you can make friends and collaborate. If they're older, you can learn and pickup on small things over time that they have gained from experience.

once you get older, i understand why WFH would be better.

I was actually going to say this, from a HR perspective I highly recommend people at the beginning of their careers to go in. It isnt as good as what it was before, but it is really beneficial to your development. It also teaches you how to navigate office politics, which is very important in almost any corporate job.

 

[SylviaB]

"Ethnics" generally do out achive anglo-Australian - as their parents on average have made large jumps in their own socioeconomic mobility, they expect the same of their children. But, they are definetely still feeling it. I do engineering, and, most of my friends were international students. The ones that managed to stay on, all engineers, are all ”complaining" despite having a far higher income than average for their age. For the non-anglo-Australians, haven't heard good things but I'm not in frequent contact.

Really? 2nd gen sudanese people are "out-acheiving" anglo australians? Somalians? Are all the assorted ethnic muslims living in western sydney, these people are "out-acheiving" anglos? Amazing!

And it is has nothing to do with parental "expecations". High-acheiving ethnics in Australia are a highly selected population. They're people whose parents were smart enough to be able to come to Australia in the first place. A lot of Indians are successful, but they're not representative of the Indian population. If you took the average Calcutta slum dwellers and dropped them into Australia, they're not going to be successful at all because they're simply dumb.

And of course, all these wonderful ethnics are the source of so much of this whole problem in the first place. We only have a housing shortage because of them. Houses didn't magically disappear - they got taken up by immigrants.[/QUOTE]

 

[seremify007]

I find this thread really interesting particularly with some of the older members commenting... I think perspectives definitely change as you grow both personally and professionally, and have a better understanding of the way things work.

Regardless of any individual circumstances, I think the observation still holds true that with housing prices rising as much as they have, it is simply out of reach for many people now and home ownership whether it be a freestanding house or even an apartment is not going to be the norm in the future.

The demographics comments above though are interesting. Whilst I don't disagree with enoilgram's comments about certain groups outachieving, I think there is definitely a ceiling of sorts (bamboo anyone?) which precludes many of these high achievers from breaking into the really upper echelons in the corporate world.... but that isn't to say that even on the upper end of a manager/senior manager type role you wouldn't be able to outearn the average by several multiples and achieve home ownership.

 

[seremify007]

ask yourself this question: was it worth it?
you have one life. is it worth it to spend almost half of your youth living to work and not working to live? when everyone is 6ft underground; it doesn't matter how much money you made or how many apartments you managed to own. did you truly enjoy your life overworking yourself to keep up with something that was never in your favour?

it's distressing that this kind of strenuous lifestyle is being normalised.

Just wanted to respond to this individual question even though it was directed at someone else...

I wholeheartedly say yes to this whenever someone asks me this question. Was it worth working full time and studying full time in my early 20's to get ahead? Yes. Was it worth it to keep working hard even into my 30's? Yes. My parents were migrants and pushed me to work hard from a young age and I have no regrets even if at the time I hated it and thought it was stupid (and suspect this is similar to how enoilgram may have felt growing up).

If I look at my friends from school/uni, those who took longer to get on the bandwagon of "working hard" ended up starting much later and it made things harder when they reached other points in their life where they may have wanted to do something like travel, buy a home or have kids.

I wouldn't be too quick to say that life is a breeze for my family now, but I know I have it significantly better than most thanks to the hard work I put in in my 20's, and as a result, I'm able to give more opportunities to my own children. My wife also had a similar upbringing to me and I think that's probably why we both understand each other's mindsets and attitudes too.

 

[enoilgam]

Really? 2nd gen sudanese people are "out-acheiving" anglo australians? Somalians? Are all the assorted ethnic muslims living in western sydney, these people are "out-acheiving" anglos? Amazing!

And it is has nothing to do with parental "expecations". High-acheiving ethnics in Australia are a highly selected population. They're people whose parents were smart enough to be able to come to Australia in the first place. A lot of Indians are successful, but they're not representative of the Indian population. If you took the average Calcutta slum dwellers and dropped them into Australia, they're not going to be successful at all because they're simply dumb.

And of course, all these wonderful ethnics are the source of so much of this whole problem in the first place. We only have a housing shortage because of them. Houses didn't magically disappear - they got taken up by immigrants.

[/QUOTE]

Don't underestimate ethnics. My grandparents had three years of education combined and they managed to go from 3rd world poor to 1st world middle class within 10-15 years of getting off the boat (granted that was a different era). Even today, Ive rented to a few Indian families fresh off the boat and they never last long as tenants. They stay with me for about 2-3 years before I get the notice that they are moving because they have bought their own place. A lot of these tenants weren't skilled workers, they were mostly cooks, healthcare support workers etc. One thing Aussies and people like myself will never truly understand is the level of drive these people have to improve their circumstances. When people grow up in abject poverty and get a whiff of opportunity, they will do whatever it takes to get ahead.

A little anecdote but my grandfather is the fastest eater ever - us kids would race him and he was unbeatable. Later in life I learned this was because as a kid, he had 7 brothers and sisters and little food. So when food was available he had to eat as fast as possible or else he would go hungry. The man is 88 years old with enough food in his house to feed an army and he still eats faster than all of us. Never underestimate their drive or just how determined they are to get ahead - determination like that never dies nor is it understood by those of us who haven't suffered.

Completely agree with you on the rest of it though, immigration is a huge factor in property prices.

 

[enoilgam]

The demographics comments above though are interesting. Whilst I don't disagree with enoilgram's comments about certain groups outachieving, I think there is definitely a ceiling of sorts (bamboo anyone?) which precludes many of these high achievers from breaking into the really upper echelons in the corporate world.... but that isn't to say that even on the upper end of a manager/senior manager type role you wouldn't be able to outearn the average by several multiples and achieve home ownership.

This does have a lot of truth to it, I feel like whilst ethnics get ahead financially, it will take generations before we have the connections and power that defines old WASP money in the Eastern Suburbs or North Shore. It's very hard to explain, but breaking into old money and the connections/social influence that those circles have (especially with things like board appointments, senior executive positions etc) is very hard if you are a newer Australian.

I hope this doesnt sound like a conspiracy theory, but there is something to be said for the power of those connections. Like, it isnt a grand conspiracy to keep ethnics down, I think its more to do with old traditional powerbases more than anything else.

 

[empowered]

im selling my kidney guys

 

[seremify007]

A little anecdote but my grandfather is the fastest eater ever - us kids would race him and he was unbeatable. Later in life I learned this was because as a kid, he had 7 brothers and sisters and little food. So when food was available he had to eat as fast as possible or else he would go hungry. The man is 88 years old with enough food in his house to feed an army and he still eats faster than all of us. Never underestimate their drive or just how determined they are to get ahead - determination like that never dies nor is it understood by those of us who haven't suffered.

My parents told me similar stories as well from their childhood in poverty. If you didn't eat quick you didn't eat. Funny how these stories stay with us and pass down generations. That being said my daughter is a pretty picky eater so I don't know if I've managed to instill this value in her!

 

[SylviaB]

Don't underestimate ethnics. My grandparents had three years of education combined and they managed to go from 3rd world poor to 1st world middle class within 10-15 years of getting off the boat (granted that was a different era). Even today, Ive rented to a few Indian families fresh off the boat and they never last long as tenants. They stay with me for about 2-3 years before I get the notice that they are moving because they have bought their own place. A lot of these tenants weren't skilled workers, they were mostly cooks, healthcare support workers etc. One thing Aussies and people like myself will never truly understand is the level of drive these people have to improve their circumstances. When people grow up in abject poverty and get a whiff of opportunity, they will do whatever it takes to get ahead.

Did it occur to you that being able to make it to Australia back then selected for traits that make people successful? Being willing and able to get to Australia knowing you won't have anyone or anything to support you selected for hardworking self-sufficient people?

Whereas people from Somalia today are not selected for any positive traits. All they had to do was step on a plane and collect government benefits. And they came here precisely because they failed so hard at life, so there's literally no reason to expect them to be successful and they're not. But according to your theory non-anglo= superior, and your theory completely fails here because it's a dumb theory.

Isn't it bizarre that all these "superior" non-anglos failed to ever produce a country worth living in and have to depend on anglos building good countries for them to move to? Is Australia wealthier than India because anglos are smarter and more capable than people in India? Or is that kind of explanation only acceptable when non-anglos are being claimed as being superior?

 

[SylviaB]

The demographics comments above though are interesting. Whilst I don't disagree with enoilgram's comments about certain groups outachieving, I think there is definitely a ceiling of sorts (bamboo anyone?) which precludes many of these high achievers from breaking into the really upper echelons in the corporate world.... but that isn't to say that even on the upper end of a manager/senior manager type role you wouldn't be able to outearn the average by several multiples and achieve home ownership.

Have you considered the possibility that they lack the traits required to be good managers? That being good at number crunching doesn't mean you have leadership ability?

 

[SylviaB]

This does have a lot of truth to it, I feel like whilst ethnics get ahead financially, it will take generations before we have the connections and power that defines old WASP money in the Eastern Suburbs or North Shore.

This is an INSANE cope

It's very hard to explain, but breaking into old money and the connections/social influence that those circles have (especially with things like board appointments, senior executive positions etc) is very hard if you are a newer Australian.

Most asians and indians have no leadership skills maybe?

I hope this doesnt sound like a conspiracy theory, but there is something to be said for the power of those connections. Like, it isnt a grand conspiracy to keep ethnics down, I think its more to do with old traditional powerbases more than anything else.

Ethnics when they make more than most people: "LOL sorry but we're simply superior to you fucking losers, git gud and stop crying"

Ethnics when they don't become CEOs: "WAAAAAHHHH IT'S NOT FAIR SOCIETY IS CONSPIRING AGAINST US TO KEEP US DOWN!!!!"

 

[KloppsAndRobbers]

@deadliestcolt

 

[seremify007]

Have you considered the possibility that they lack the traits required to be good managers? That being good at number crunching doesn't mean you have leadership ability?

In my former organisation we actually spent significant time and resources deep diving into this... and rather than derail this thread, let's just say there was definitely some institutionalised biases at play in how the next generation of leaders was identified and included on the long term talent map. I don't disagree though with your sentiment that some of the traits which help get someone into a graduate role for example and do well in the junior levels of an organisation, don't necessarily translate well into what's needed to progress to leadership. I was one of the very few who managed to break through and get into a position of leadership and I have seen many struggle with that mindset shift.

 

[SylviaB]

here's some more successful immigrants like enoilgam was talking about

 

[SylviaB]

In my former organisation we actually spent significant time and resources deep diving into this... and rather than derail this thread, let's just say there was definitely some institutionalised biases at play in how the next generation of leaders was identified and included on the long term talent map. I don't disagree though with your sentiment that some of the traits which help get someone into a graduate role for example and do well in the junior levels of an organisation, don't necessarily translate well into what's needed to progress to leadership. I was one of the very few who managed to break through and get into a position of leadership and I have seen many struggle with that mindset shift.

I wonder how many minorities make it to management in China and India?

 

[synthesisFR]

here's some more successful immigrants like enoilgam was talking about

i wanna see how miserable you are irl