Taser Incident in UCLA Library Sparks Outrage, Investigation (2 Viewers)

[SiZmOs]

Have you ever been discriminated against due to your nationality, NTB? If so, how many times does it happen in a day, or in a week?
I'm guessing that if it did happen to you each and every single day, you'd be quite pissed.
What if this guy was a mate of yours? Would you still be as apathetic towards the whole situation then?
The whole issue is not that he kicked up a stink, it's that he got tasered for not producing I.D in a library. And even if he did yell and scream, is getting tasered a justifiable punishment for not producing I.D in a UNIVERSITY LIBRARY? It's not like it's an airport or the White House.

 

[Comrade nathan]

So if you were asked to show ID at your university when you were in the library at 11:00pm, you'd consider this an outrage and start screaming like he did?

Depends in what context. If I was asked and I know that others had not been asked before I would be confused. However this man is Iranian-American, in the current climate I too would feel outraged.

I don't think you know that UCLA has had a long history of race tension. Los Angeles city has a long history of racial tension, and many cops have been found to be racist pigs. I think you have taken this out of context, out of reality.

Maybe he was unfairly targetted, but it still doesn't justify the reaction which he did give

I think being unfairly targetted does. This 2006, people shouldn't have to stand for this. People are bound to flip out if they are treated differently or perceived they are treated differently.

If this is true then this makes what the police did less extreme. One of the biggest problems I had was that it was claimed he was already handcuffed when he was stunned.

Well that is the problem with learning the facts on cases like this. Police stick up for each and their supporters follow to. Some students and political characters like to talk up about oppression.

However the extremity doesn't change much about the handcuffs. I think they are minor details. The problem here is 1) Racial discrimination 2) The way the police acted. You taser someone to stun them, incapacitate them so they are no longer a threat. If you want someone to move, tasering the 5 or 6 times isn't the way to do it.

UCLA Acting Chancellor Norman Abrams Announces Independent Investigation of the Incident at Powell Library
Nov. 17, 2006

UCLA Acting Chancellor Norman Abrams announced today that an independent investigation will be conducted of the incident in Powell Library in which a UCLA student was taken into custody by campus police.

"After careful deliberation, I have decided to accept the recommendation of Police Chief Karl Ross and my senior advisors to establish an independent investigation of this incident," Abrams said. "We have selected Merrick Bobb, who is widely recognized for his integrity and independence in such sensitive matters, to lead this investigation."

Abrams said Bobb is one of the nation's leading authorities on police conduct. He served as a staff attorney for the Christopher Commission, which examined Los Angeles Police Department policies, and also has served as an independent monitor of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department.

The UCPD also will continue its investigation, Abrams said.

"The police department investigation will be speedy and fair," he said. "I have complete respect for, and confidence in, UCPD. But there are times when it is helpful to turn to an outside review as well."

Abrams said in the past two days his office has been contacted by many students, alumni and parents to express their concern about Tuesday night's incident.

"Student safety and treatment are of paramount concern at UCLA," Abrams said. "I am committed, as well, to our country's system of due process, which counsels that we not rush to judgment. A number of witnesses have already stepped forward. We plan to move ahead promptly with a complete and unbiased review. I am confident that the review process that is being undertaken will allow us to reach a fair, appropriate and just conclusion."

Karl Ross, the UCLA police chief, said, "While I am confident of our ability to perform a fair and thorough investigation, I am also cognizant of the need for a transparent review."

http://www.ucla.edu/bulletin/powell-incident.html

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Have you ever been discriminated against due to your nationality, NTB?

No.

I'm guessing that if it did happen to you each and every single day, you'd be quite pissed.

Yea it'd be annoying.

What if this guy was a mate of yours? Would you still be as apathetic towards the whole situation then?

I'm not apathetic... I think what happened was a case of gross use of excessive force. If he was my mate then it would be more personal and I probably wouldn't say any defence I have of the police officers to his face.

The whole issue is not that he kicked up a stink, it's that he got tasered for not producing I.D in a library.

Why would we ignore what was happening before the incident? The police response is only more/less excessive relatively to what happened to trigger their use of force.

And even if he did yell and scream, is getting tasered a justifiable punishment for not producing I.D in a UNIVERSITY LIBRARY?

No and if you can find where I've said that it is you win the magic prize. By the way the police are not claiming they tasered him for yelling/screaming and not producing his I.D., it's because he was resisting apprehension.

Depends in what context. If I was asked and I know that others had not been asked before I would be confused. However this man is Iranian-American, in the current climate I too would feel outraged.

Outraged for being asked if you have ID? Why? Even if you think they're picking on you it hardly calls for being outraged.

I don't think you know that UCLA has had a long history of race tension. Los Angeles city has a long history of racial tension, and many cops have been found to be racist pigs. I think you have taken this out of context, out of reality.

Alot of places in america have long histories of race tension and from the video you'll see that one of the police officers is in fact a black man, another seems to be of asian or latino descent.

I think being unfairly targetted does. This 2006, people shouldn't have to stand for this. People are bound to flip out if they are treated differently or perceived they are treated differently.

However there's no evidence that he was treated differently and they were merely doing what policy told them they should do.

 

[SiZmOs]

I really don't think we're going to come to an agreement about this. I think that a taser would only have been justified if he had used violence against one of the officers, which I saw no evidence of. Cops are trained to deal with people yelling at them. It's part of the job description.
Regardless of the excessive force displayed, he should not have been zapped at all. Making noise in a library? God forbid.
I wonder if it had been a white, Christian kid they would have done the same? And if they had, would it have sparked the same amount of public interest?

 

[SiZmOs]

thankyou, politik.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Was he seen as a threat? Does failure to produce ID garner a threat? Even if he bends forward and refuses to move, is he threatening the officers with violence?

I'm not apathetic... I think what happened was a case of gross use of excessive force.

If I was one of the cops in that situation, sure picking him up and dragging him out of the building is probably the best option. But the guy is obviously quite distressed, yelling etc and there's a decent chance that when you go to grab him he'll fight back possibly injuring you.

What I want to know is, why they used a taser, when there definitely was no threat presented.

I think it's pretty obvious if they would have gone to grab him he would have fought back in his highly distressed state, he could have had a knife on him etc. It's not a matter of him being some sort of crazy terrorist or whatever, it's just a matter of him being an everyday student that is pretty pissed off (for whatever reason) and everyday students that are that distressed to pose a high risk to any security that might want to apprehend them.

Should they have used the taser imo? No, it really is excessive force.
Does the circumstances leading up to them using the taser matter when assessing how excessive their response was? Yes and I would argue in light of fears they may have had reguarding apprehending him the first use of the taser was excessive but not to the point where I'd feel it was deserving of significant punishment i.e. Long gaol time.

The repeated use of the taser however does make it deserving of significant punishment as whatever fears they may have had reguarding apprehending him should have been significantly alleviated.

I really don't think we're going to come to an agreement about this. I think that a taser would only have been justified if he had used violence against one of the officers, which I saw no evidence of. Cops are trained to deal with people yelling at them. It's part of the job description.

There was the threat of violence - Rowdy, uncooperative, obviously distressed young men are quite a threat without performing any violent actions. While I don't think this justifies the use of the taser, it does lessen the severity of what happened.

 

[Aryanbeauty]

Arrogant bastard met stupid cop I must say. According to LA Times the cop has history of violence. Although the use of taser is excessive, the student deserve something like that. If he knew he was singled out then he should present his ID nicely with a big grin like a church going girl would. If I were him I'd made a dress out of ID like thongs dress in Priscilla Queen of the Desert and wear it whenever I go to the Library.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

The UCLA police officer videotaped last week using a Taser gun on a student also shot a homeless man at a campus study hall room three years ago and was earlier recommended for dismissal in connection with an alleged assault on fraternity row, authorities said....

In May 1990, he was accused of using his nightstick to choke someone who was hanging out on a Saturday in front of a UCLA fraternity. Kente S. Scott alleged that Duren confronted him while he was walking on the street outside the Theta Xi fraternity house.

Scott sued the university, and according to court records, UCLA officials moved to have Duren dismissed from the police force. But after an independent administrative hearing, officials overturned the dismissal, suspending him for 90 days, according to court records. Duren on Monday disputed the allegations made by Scott.

In October 2003, Duren shot and wounded a homeless man he encountered in Kerckhoff Hall. Duren chased the man into a bathroom, where they struggled and he fired two shots.

The homeless man, Willie Davis Frazier, was later convicted of assaulting an officer. Duren said Frasier had tried to grab his gun during the struggle. But Frazier's attorney, John Raphling, said his client was mentally ill and didn't do anything to provoke the shooting.

In light of his history I cannot accept that this was just a gross misjudgement during a heated situation, this guy has a problem and shouldn't be in a position of authority at all. Given his history I think alot of questions now have to be asked of the UCLA police that decided to keep this person in this job.

 

[sunjet]

Honestly, if that happened at UNSW or was one of my mates, I'd be furious, pretty tempting to hit the cop/cause havoc.

 

[sunjet]

By the way, not sure if anyone mentioned but getting tasered a couple of times would make it difficult to get up, but still you'd be rather arrogant in that situation and blatantly ignore them.

 

[sam04u]

Maybe he was unfairly targetted, but it still doesn't justify the reaction which he did give - Nor did that reaction warrent the actions of the police officers.

A tazer gun should only be used in 'restraining' violent people. I don't see how is non-compliance would justify being tazed upto 5 times. If you consider the excruciating pain and the physical inability to get up and leave.

1.(He was tazered.)
2.(He was handcuffed and thus couldn't use his hands to help get up.)


He was even tazered after agreeing to leave, trying to stand up and whilst restrained by handcuffs. Now, explain how this would be Justified?

Please read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissocial_personality_disorder

According to the older theory of Freudian psychoanalysis, a person with antisocial personality disorder has a strong id and ego that overpowers the superego. The theory proposes that internalized morals of our unconscious mind are restricted from surfacing to the ego and consciousness. However, this explanation provides no insight into the cause or treatment of the problem.

Enough said.

 

[lengy]

Lets pretend I'm a pig and hate Jews and singled out Jews to be I.D. and still gave them a hard time about it. I'm sure you'd enjoy that Jewyanugly.

 

[wheredanton]

No. You're ignoring the nucleus of the issue. Was he seen as a threat? Does failure to produce ID garner a threat? Even if he bends forward and refuses to move, is he threatening the officers with violence?

I believe they tasered him after he went nutso for being asked to identify himself.

What I want to know is, why they used a taser, when there definitely was no threat presented. Granted he went overboard with the Patriot Act rant, but when an implement such as a Taser is defined by Amnesty International as a weapon of Torture, there are few who would advocate its use in a tertiary environment. Particularly one in which the majority of students would belong to a level of intelligentsia - and the threat of violence that they could present, is much lower than what could occur in a High School in the US.

I don't understand why you would assert that it is wrong to use a taser in a tertiary environment? It's acceptable in the right circumstances when university police feel that a person needs to be controlled because he or she is out of control in a dangerous way. Perhaps their use of the taser was excessive, but one thing is for sure was that he was ranting like a deranged lunatic and he was or Arab appearance. That will get you tasered or shot in many nations around the world. Why? because people of all races associate acts of terror with Arab appearance either consciously or subconsciously rightly or wrongly.

Your comment also assumes that the police knew that he was a student, they have no way of knowing this other than asking for his ID, which seems a reasonable request at 11pm at night.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

A tazer gun should only be used in 'restraining' violent people.

That's what it could have been used for. As I said in my former post:

There was the threat of violence - Rowdy, uncooperative, obviously distressed young men are quite a threat without performing any violent actions. While I don't think this justifies the use of the taser, it does lessen the severity of what happened.

I don't see how is non-compliance would justify being tazed upto 5 times.

It wouldn't.

Does the circumstances leading up to them using the taser matter when assessing how excessive their response was? Yes and I would argue in light of fears they may have had reguarding apprehending him the first use of the taser was excessive but not to the point where I'd feel it was deserving of significant punishment i.e. Long gaol time.

The repeated use of the taser however does make it deserving of significant punishment as whatever fears they may have had reguarding apprehending him should have been significantly alleviated.

2.(He was handcuffed and thus couldn't use his hands to help get up.)

I'm hearing evidence that he wasn't handcuffed also.

He was even tazered after agreeing to leave, trying to stand up and whilst restrained by handcuffs. Now, explain how this would be Justified?

You haven't read my post and just assumed I think the act in its entirety is justified.

 

[SiZmOs]

NTB brings up some good points, and I do not totally disagree with him. Especially considering that the cop has a history of violence demonstrates that the incident was more than a misjudgement, as NTB has said.

In light of his history I cannot accept that this was just a gross misjudgement during a heated situation, this guy has a problem and shouldn't be in a position of authority at all. Given his history I think alot of questions now have to be asked of the UCLA police that decided to keep this person in this job.

Read all of his posts in their entirety before making your assumptions about his own.

 

[Comrade nathan]

Not-That-Bright contradicted himself. As shown by that statement he claims that the police officer shouldn't be in a position of authority. Then on the use of tasers he refers to an older post about violence. That statement went back on his criticism of the officer, which assumed that the man does not have the ability to control a situation. To be consistant, we would assume that with another officer the situation would have went differently, and a solution could have been reached.

On a general issue about becoming violence, which part of the film did he resist violently? As I posted before the UCPD can only use taser if the officers can not physically arrest someone. It doesn't even look like they try to control the man to begin with. There is no attempt to hold him down and escort him. I think this relates back to the officers history. He seemed rather lazy and stupid that he would use the taser. Lazy because he doesn't attempt to control the situation by other means, stupid because he stuns him and immediatly tells him to get up.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Not-That-Bright contradicted himself. As shown by that statement he claims that the police officer shouldn't be in a position of authority. Then on the use of tasers he refers to an older post about violence. That statement went back on his criticism of the officer, which assumed that the man does not have the ability to control a situation. To be consistant, we would assume that with another officer the situation would have went differently, and a solution could have been reached.

I didn't contradict myself, the first statement is me stating my position with the information I know now. My secondary statement is me defending the position I held before having such knowledge, now being a hypothetical defence.

On a general issue about becoming violence, which part of the film did he resist violently?

Well what I said was:

There was the threat of violence - Rowdy, uncooperative, obviously distressed young men are quite a threat without performing any violent actions. While I don't think this justifies the use of the taser, it does lessen the severity of what happened.

My hypothetical argument is that if this was a situation where a rowdy, uncooperative, distressed young man was needed to be detained by the police and they used the taser on him once to get the situation under control and avoid violence then the excessiveness would be fairly negligible. Of course another important factor in this would be the physical condition of the officer and the physical condition of the victim, i.e. In a situation where it's a small woman and a very large man, the use of a taser becomes more justifiable than if it's two people of equal physical condition.

The factors which make this a more straightforward case are:

• The repeated use of the taser, and
• The history of the police officer.

If he was an officer of good standing and only used the taser once as a precautionary measure against violence then while I would still disagree with its use I would argue that it is concievably justifiable and that little in the way of reprimand is necessary.

 

[Comrade nathan]

You said "There was a threat of violence", it sounds directed at the event. If you said "If there was a " or "If there is" then I would have understood you're statement as being hypothetical.

 

[Comrade nathan]

A tazer gun should only be used in 'restraining' violent people. I don't see how is non-compliance would justify being tazed upto 5 times. If you consider the excruciating pain and the physical inability to get up and leave.

1.(He was tazered.)
2.(He was handcuffed and thus couldn't use his hands to help get up.)


He was even tazered after agreeing to leave, trying to stand up and whilst restrained by handcuffs. Now, explain how this would be Justified?

Please read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissocial_personality_disorder



Enough said.

What is the relevance of this quote about Antisocial personality disorder?

 

[Aryanbeauty]

Lets pretend I'm a pig and hate Jews and singled out Jews to be I.D. and still gave them a hard time about it. I'm sure you'd enjoy that Jewyanugly.

aww please do with all the little power and strength you have. it will be fun to watch you trying to be forceful and authoritative with your high pitched voice with a lisp.