The Abortion Debate (continued) (3 Viewers)

bshoc

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Not-That-Bright said:
Not everything has to go along with Arrows impossibility theory.


:random diversionary tactical cut and paste:
Arrows impossibility theorem proves my point, which is that utility can in no way be distributed, measured or infered in a comparative sense - such as that whole thing you're trying to push about "collective happiness."

hehe I can so see you googling "arrows impossibility theorem is wrong" etc. to get that.

What I've essentially done is show that whilst people may hold your view it is the wrong one, and thus would be discounted by those with enough logic to understand the issue in its entirety.
 

AntiHyper

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BradCube said:
When do you believe that life does come?
I say every cell in our body are alive, they're not "inanimate" except for bones.

Yes, having an abortion means destroying living cells whether that maybe a clump of blood and meat.

They're may be "alive" but it certainly cannot survive outside the womb. I'm talking about 5 months of pregnancy.

I think current laws should stay as it draws out a reasonable guideline of the latest time an embryo or foetus can be aborted.

Personally, this instance of time should be at the point where if the baby was taken out it could still be kept alive with more than 50% chance of success.
 

bshoc

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gerhard said:
seriously, just give up. you obviously have no understanding whatsoever of statistics. obviously it relates because it is statistically relevant. this sort of thing gets taught it lots of first year statistics classes.

i mean i dont know how to explain it any clearer so ill just copy some quotes from websites. maybe I just can't explain well.


from http://www.britishpollingcouncil.org/questions.html

http://www.janda.org/c10/Lectures/topic05/GallupFAQ.htm
this one also says exactly the same thing, with exactly the same example (3% margin for 1000 people)
Nobody has ever taken a nationwide poll an abortion to verify have they? Infact 1407 seems to be the biggest number, which is nothing. And it still does nothing to counter the fallacy of composition.

Btw. dont expect any more replies, I have no intrest in debating someone incapable of admitting fault.

What was they were saying in America before the 2004 election (and these were polls in the tens of thousands, not a joke number like 1407) - Gallup and other polling stations consencus - 53% on Kerry LOL.
 
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Not-That-Bright

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Not everything has to go along with Arrows impossibility theory.
Allow me to explain this further, the axiom's used to promote his theory can be challenged.

Arrow’s impossibility theorem is the most famous result in social choice theory, but its
significance for human affairs is still a matter for debate. Arrow considers the question of
whether it is possible to construct a social welfare function (henceforth SWF), which is a rule by
which the ordinal preferences of an arbitrary group of individuals can be aggregated to determine
a social ordering of the same alternatives, in accordance to the following superficially reasonable
axioms:

O. Ordering: the social ordering should have the same properties as the individual
orderings (e.g., completeness and transitivity) and should be determined only by
the individual orderings
U. Unrestricted domain: a social ordering should be determined for any logically
possible specifications of individual preferences
P. Pareto optimality: if everyone prefers x to y, then society should prefer x to y
D. Non-Dictatorship: there is no individual whose preferences always prevail over those
of all other individuals
I. Independence of irrelevant alternatives: the social ordering of x and y should depend
only on individual preferences between x and y, not preferences for any other
alternatives
Arrow’s theorem shows that this is impossible: no SWF can simultaneously satisfy all of these
axioms. The proof (following Vickrey) proceeds in several ingenious steps. First, the notion of
a decisive set is introduced. Define a set of individuals to be decisive for one alternative x over
another alternative y if, whenever they all prefer x over y, society does too, when all other
individuals have the oppositive preferences. Then:
(i)
Axioms O, U, I, and P imply that a set of individuals who are decisive for x over y are
also decisive for all other pairs of alternatives, as follows:

Let set D be decisive for x over y. Suppose everyone in set D has x > y > u while
everyone else has y > u > x. Then x > y must prevail, by the decisiveness of D.
Meanwhile everyone agrees y > u, so y > u must prevail by the Pareto rule, whence x > u
prevails by transitivity—even though only members of D have x > u as individuals!
Hence D is also decisive for x over u. Similarly:
z > x > u in D, u > z > x elsewhere D is decisive for z over u
z > u > w in D, u > w > z elsewhere D is decisive for z over w
(ii)
There is always at least one decisive set, namely the set of all individuals.
(iii)
Axioms O and U imply that any decisive set can be decomposed into two proper subsets,
at least one of which is itself decisive, which eventually leads down to a decisive set of
size 1—namely a dictator—in violation of axiom D, as follows:
Let D have proper subsets A and B, and let C be everyone else, with:
A: x > y > u,
B: y > u > x,
C: u > x > y
Since A∪B is decisive, y > u must prevail. If also x < y prevails, this must mean B is
decisive for x over y. But if x > y prevails, then x > u must prevail by transitivity, in
which case A is decisive. Gotcha!

In the 50 years since Arrow first proved this result, various authors have pointed out that it isn’t
as surprising or as dismal as it might have appeared at first glance. Objections can be raised
against most of the axioms, separately or in combination with each other, and against the whole
enterprise of searching for a universal social welfare function. First, consider axiom O, which
entails completeness and transitivity of both individual and social orderings. We have already
seen that completeness is an objectionable axiom even when applied to the preferences of an
individual, and its normative status is even more dubious when applied to a group of individuals
who are not of the same mind (unless they have had the opportunity to arbitrage-out their
differences of opinion—but that is another story!). In any case, do we really need a complete
social ordering of all the alternatives, or would it suffice to merely determine a “best” alternative
or even a “good” alternative for the problem at hand?


Would it be acceptable for society to occasionally be undecided, leaving some choices to be made by arbitrary or accidental tie-
breaking rules (hanging chad, etc.)?

The status of transitivity as a normative principle of
rationality for individuals has been questioned by Peter Fishburn and Robert Sudgen, among
others, and their arguments are even more compelling when applied to groups: if majority voting
sometimes leads to intransitive cycles in pairwise comparisons, so what?

Next, consider axiom
U. Why should a SWF be required to operate on completely arbitrary individual preferences, no
matter how perverse? Social norms, institutions, and evolutionary psychology may impose
constraints or symmetries on individual preferences that could facilitate preference aggregation
in some settings. (Arrow observed that if preferences are “single peaked,” a condition that
Duncan Black had used earlier to rationalize majority voting, it is possible to aggregate them in a
way that satisfies all the other axioms.) More generally, why should we let our social choices in this
world be governed by considerations of what might have happened in some weirdly different
hypothetical world?

Axiom I, despite its seductive and value-laden title, has often been
criticized for prohibiting the use of any data concerning intensities of preference between
alternatives, which might otherwise provide a basis for making rational tradeoffs between the
interests of different individuals. This axiom rules out otherwise-sensible preference aggregation
methods based on scoring systems (e.g., point totals or weighted voting) or measures of cardinal
utility (e.g., Harsanyi’s theorem). It not only requires the social ordering to be determined from
data on individual preferences: it requires the social ordering to be determined from low quality
data on individual preferences. Maybe we should not be surprised that this turns out to be
impossible.
Even axiom D is not as uncontroversial as it might first appear: it is easy to
imagine situations in which one individual perhaps ought to be given dictatorial discretion over
some pairs of alternatives which affect her much more than they affect anyone else.
Finally,
there is the question of how the axioms interact with each other. Each leverages the others, and
the key steps in the proof of the theorem use a combination of two or more axioms to produce an
extreme and surprising result—e.g., someone who has dictatorial discretion over any one pair of
alternatives must have dictatorial discretion over all alternatives. In his critique of Arrow’s
theorem, I.M.D. Little states: “The conclusion, to my mind, is that it is foolish to accept or
reject a set of ethical axioms one at a time. One must know the consequences before one can say
whether one finds the set acceptable—which sets a limit to the usefulness of deductive
techniques in ethics or in welfare economics.”
hehe I can so see you googling "arrows impossibility theorem is wrong" etc. to get that.
I actually read up on it. The interesting thing I found was that utilitarian's seemed to be unphased by the theory (with almost no references about it, either a cover-up or they had a reason to not care) .

I also think that Sen Amartya's (someone whom often opposes some utilitarian ideas) social utility ideas can also be used to somewhat justify my stance.

Arrows impossibility theorem proves my point, which is that utility can in no way be distributed, measured or infered in a comparative sense - such as that whole thing you're trying to push about "collective happiness."
Most importantly, Sen's method of informational broadening allows social choice theory to escape both the objections of Arrow and Robbins, which looked as though they would cripple social choice theory permanently.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_choice_theory

You can read about how this was done at http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/mar25/articles12.htm

There are of course other objections. One problem I do have however, is that 'happiness' is a weak measurement as it's hard (maybe impossible) to measure emotions, but I live with it because that's how I like to come to grips with such moral dilemars.

Your views are not logically justifiable either

I say its wrong to take the life of somebody who has not yet had a chance to anything right or wrong, and thus an innocent life of a child, its one of the worst crimes in humanity's history.
- Why is it wrong to take the life of somebody?
- Why does it matter if they're innocent?

If I wanted to be harshly logical, I could focus on the cost of raising a child. I'll put to you that if your aim is to raise the population of the earth - that this could be done more cheaply by raising children in poorer parts of the world. However, at this time we should not be aiming for an increase in population size at the current time as increases in population are hurting our planet and the people of the planet incredibly - thus abortion should not only be allowed but be imposed.

How is that logically wrong?
 
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BradCube

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AntiHyper said:
I say every cell in our body are alive, they're not "inanimate" except for bones.

Yes, having an abortion means destroying living cells whether that maybe a clump of blood and meat.

They're may be "alive" but it certainly cannot survive outside the womb. I'm talking about 5 months of pregnancy.

I think current laws should stay as it draws out a reasonable guideline of the latest time an embryo or foetus can be aborted.

Personally, this instance of time should be at the point where if the baby was taken out it could still be kept alive with more than 50% chance of success.
So are we arguing then, that while it is alive it is not human because it depends on the mother to survive?

If this is what we are saying I don't think that it is proof of the assertion. Are not we all, even once born, dependant on our environment?
 

ur_inner_child

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bshoc, I hope you are keeping in mind that even if Australia hates abortion, it does not therefore mean that abortion is morally wrong, as I have indicated very early on in my post:

ur_inner_child said:
I am not playing the 'majority card' (a majority's view does not always mean their view is correct) but I would, however, like to draw your attention to these two links
 

gerhard

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bshoc said:
Nobody has ever taken a nationwide poll an abortion to verify have they?
Why would they need to. Ive shown you the maths above. Theres a 95% chance that those values are within 3% correct.

Infact 1407 seems to be the biggest number, which is nothing.
Again, it is enough to show that there is a 95% chance that those values are within 3% correct.

And it still does nothing to counter the fallacy of composition.
The fallacy of composition only holds if there is reason to believe that one object is composed of something different than another. Again since theres a 95% chance that those values (which we sampled) are within 3% correct (of the population), there is reason to believe that the sample is similar to the population, so that this is not fallacy of composition.

Btw. dont expect any more replies, I have no intrest in debating someone incapable of admitting fault.

is the general consensus of people reading this to agree with me? I hope my arguments havent been in vain, as Ive given up on bshoc, I think he might a lost cause, and am only really arguing so this sort of thought doesnt get taken up by innocent bystanders
 

bshoc

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Not-That-Bright said:
I actually read up on it. The interesting thing I found was that utilitarian's seemed to be unphased by the theory (with almost no references about it, either a cover-up or they had a reason to not care) and that it seems concepts of 'social choice' have found a way around his objections - which you have yet to discover perhaps?
Have you ever discovered it, I take it you havent read anything by people like JS Mill or anyone else, dont pretend you know somthing just becuase you googled it 10 minutes ago.

Its in no way complex, take that poll for example

Violates the fallacy of composition - why? Because it assumes that what is true for the part is true for the whole

Violates Arrow's Impossibility Theorem - why? Firstly it offers more than two responses, secondly because it tries to squeeze something limitless and infinite into a refined selection of 3. Say I had a bag that holds three oranges and I had unlimited oranges, how many oranges can I fit into a bag? Same nonsense.

Likewise with your whole utility/fetus pain argument - while I do agree that our aim should be to maximise utility on an indavidual level (which is why I declared myself to be on the left), to even suggest that one persons utility (mothers) can be substituted for another person (the unborn child), is fallacious.
 

Not-That-Bright

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Have you ever discovered it, I take it you havent read anything by people like JS Mill or anyone else, dont pretend you know somthing just becuase you googled it 10 minutes ago.
While I have not read any of john (sp --') mill's work (as far as I know, I read alot of laymen essays instead of the direct source material often), I try to answer questions as they come to me and justify my position. I do not have all knowledge in the world, as no one does, so when confronted with this new piece of information I have gone off to read a little bit then came back to present you with my findings. It doesn't mean I consider I 'know' it, just that I feel compitent enough to give a response that I'm willing to accept can be critiqued.

I will say however as an aside, that I was wrong about you and that I look forward to having a much more constructive debate once I feel I've got more of the question under my belt.

Violates the fallacy of composition - why? Because it assumes that what is true for the part is true for the whole
It gives us the best indication we have so far of the subject matter at hand. At what point are we to say 'ok, we know enough to say that X is true, at least for the time being, until proven otherwise' ? Or would you rather we never say that and instead continue down a path of uncertainty? To me it seems like posing the question 'Is there a blue giraffe living in Africa?', you look all around africa and don't find a blue Giraffe. It seems fair to then say that based on the current best research you have at hand, there is no blue giraffe in africa - While there may in fact be a blue giraffe in africa, is it illogical to say that the current truth (as far as you know) is that there is no blue giraffe in Africa?

I'll get back to you more on the other stuff once i've read into it more.

Edit: On second thoughts I actually have read Utilitarianism.
 
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Not-That-Bright

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For anyone interested in a continuation of this debate (I would especially like Bshoc to join in, you seem like a fairly smart guy and this is a forum full of what I'd consider to be fairly smart people), I have started a thread over at the JREF forums where people have a bit more of an idea on this subject than me to skim over bshoc's ideas. Both sides of the debate seem to be covered (not abortion/anti-abortion, but those that agree with Bshoc's statement and those that don't).

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=60676

(I'm TheChadd)
 
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Not-That-Bright

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There's alot of awesome threads over on those forums. Particularily if you've ever wondered whether something is real or not... For example the polygraph, audiophile stuff (i.e. music is better on records), psychics and all other silly supernatural junk.
 

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I don't believe people have a right to enforce their ideals on other people's bodies. It is a matter of choice for the individual.

If I had a child with Down's Syndrome, I'd prefer if they died. Bringing a child into this world is a difficult decision. A right to life is a right to death and there are already many people in this world. Unless my child is the best I would not want it. Here's hoping for advances in bioengineering and genetic engineering technology.
 

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What I think at 4:30am...(personal opinions galore and not a direct debate against anyone):

The most fundamental right is choice, and in the crudest sense a wrong doing is a denial of that choice - which is part of why murder is wrong. If someone is killed, they lose the choice to live and to do everything associated with living, and by that token forcing someone to live(ie resuscitate when the order is given not to) and cope with those choices is equally wrong.

Of course not everyone is capable of making certain choices for themselves which is why children have parents and guardians to decide certain elements that a child is not aware enough to decide upon for themselves. A similar logic could be extended to the foetus - lacking the information and awareness to make life choices those who are responsible for it must do so in its stead. Now there are certain rights a child has that their guardians have no control over - infliction of pain (ie torture/cruelty/neglect) and death. Now a foetus in its most early stages does not feel pain(or at least not as we know it) and so that substantially removes that part.

So this brings me to my next part. Children cry, they get hungry, they yell, scream whatever but they do all of this because they do have some basic awareness of what they want even from birth - including a drive to live. The cluster of cells that is or will become a foetus in the early stages hardly has that - it does not want anything on any level. So again the choice must fall to the parent and since unlike a child there is no drive whatsoever to live then this choice must also become that of the parent.

Should the government illegalise abortion, then in my view they are taking away the right of a woman to choose whether or not to incapacitate herself for an extended period of time. Which I don't believe is completely just.

I'd also add, that I can't see how one can protest for the 'life' of an early term foetus and not be a vegetarian.
 

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kami said:
What I think at 4:30am...(personal opinions galore and not a direct debate against anyone):

The most fundamental right is choice, and in the crudest sense a wrong doing is a denial of that choice - which is part of why murder is wrong. If someone is killed, they lose the choice to live and to do everything associated with living, and by that token forcing someone to live(ie resuscitate when the order is given not to) and cope with those choices is equally wrong.

Of course not everyone is capable of making certain choices for themselves which is why children have parents and guardians to decide certain elements that a child is not aware enough to decide upon for themselves. A similar logic could be extended to the foetus - lacking the information and awareness to make life choices those who are responsible for it must do so in its stead. Now there are certain rights a child has that their guardians have no control over - infliction of pain (ie torture/cruelty/neglect) and death. Now a foetus in its most early stages does not feel pain(or at least not as we know it) and so that substantially removes that part.

So this brings me to my next part. Children cry, they get hungry, they yell, scream whatever but they do all of this because they do have some basic awareness of what they want even from birth - including a drive to live. The cluster of cells that is or will become a foetus in the early stages hardly has that - it does not want anything on any level. So again the choice must fall to the parent and since unlike a child there is no drive whatsoever to live then this choice must also become that of the parent.

Should the government illegalise abortion, then in my view they are taking away the right of a woman to choose whether or not to incapacitate herself for an extended period of time. Which I don't believe is completely just.

I'd also add, that I can't see how one can protest for the 'life' of an early term foetus and not be a vegetarian.
I've never put much stock in the "choice" argument which is usually the turf that pro abortion people choose to fight the battle of ideas on. Society makes all sorts of laws and regulations limiting people's "choices". Ironically its one of the few areas that feminists tend to whole heartedly adopt libertarian arguments in relation to. We have heaps of laws governing the conduct of medical professionals etc. Doctors aren't allowed to amputate people's hands if they request it because it's "their body". Similarly society doesn't allow people to take any drugs they want because it's "their body".

As for people having a "right" to abortion. That's nonsense on stilts.
 

Not-That-Bright

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banco55 said:
I've never put much stock in the "choice" argument which is usually the turf that pro abortion people choose to fight the battle of ideas on. Society makes all sorts of laws and regulations limiting people's "choices". Ironically its one of the few areas that feminists tend to whole heartedly adopt libertarian arguments in relation to. We have heaps of laws governing the conduct of medical professionals etc. Doctors aren't allowed to amputate people's hands if they request it because it's "their body". Similarly society doesn't allow people to take any drugs they want because it's "their body".

As for people having a "right" to abortion. That's nonsense on stilts.
Well as for the "right to life" meaning that abortion is morally wrong, I think you need to read this -> http://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm

With reguard to Bshoc's boasting about 'winning' that I noticed he edited in. I think he should realise that even if he is able to demonstratably show how my system of morals is logically flawed (I think this is still quite contentious looking at the other thread, while you can show that utilitarianism is flawed (as you can will all moral systems) it is not as early on with the moral decision-making that the problems arise), that does not therefore prove that his is right. I have not begun to attack his own system of morals, yet he declairs victory on the assumption that he has now (according to him) shown me wrong?

By the way, if you can't be bothered reading that thread, this is how it currently stand's:

drkitten said:
Utilitarianism is a philosophical framework, an expression of adherence to a particular principle, if you will. The principle, of course, is that an action is moral to the extent it increases the total happiness in the group of interest.

Arrow's theorem says nothing about this. (In particular, Arrow's theorem doesn't even apply to the abortion question, since it only applies to the decision-making process, only applies when there are three or more alternative choices available. A simple yes/no question does not create Arrow paradoxes.)

I would also argue that utilitarianism specifically precludes Arrow paradoxes precisely because "the total happiness," if expressed numerically, creates an objective total order among all choices. Therefore, no Arrow paradox can arise.
bruno putzeys said:
I would also argue that utilitarianism specifically precludes Arrow paradoxes precisely because "the total happiness," if expressed numerically, creates an objective total order among all choices. Therefore, no Arrow paradox can arise.
It can, when you consider how you evaluate happiness for a single person before averaging
drkitten said:
I don't see it.

For every person and every proposed course of action, there will be a unique happiness score. (Formally, I could even create a matrix of people cross actions and put a numeric value there.) There's room for disagreement about the numbers to plug into the matrix -- but that's not an Arrow paradox, just a disagreement.

Once the numbers are in place, the question is simply which column (or row) of the matrix has the highest total value -- and that's an objective question.
james dillon said:
Once the numbers are in place, the question is simply which column (or row) of the matrix has the highest total value -- and that's an objective question.
Assuming that the numbers in question could themselves be objectively derived, yes. The disagreement that you noted would accompany the calculation indicates, I think, an inevitable subjectivity in the process. The final result might be "objective" in a literal sense, but there's no good reason to think it's an accurate model of reality, rather than the subjective judgment call of whoever did the calculations.
bruno putzeys said:
I submit that the disagreement is a manifestation of the arrow theorem.

Suppose I do a happiness enquiry on all people. What do I include?
Lessee... Health? Material comforts? Friendship? Sex?

How do I weigh them? According to whose opinion? Does this opinion correctly reflect how happy people really feel in function of measured parameters?

Where the arrow problem kicks in is when you start juggling these weights.
drkitten said:
And I submit that it isn't, because it doesn't involve group decisions. Happiness is a personal decision, not a group one.

To do a happiness enquiry, the relevant question is not "will choice A improve your sex life?" or a similar fractionisation of happiness. The relevant question is "how happy will you be under choice A?"

The relevant person to make that decision is, of course, the person whose happiness is in question.

To do otherwise is to assert that you know better than the other person what will and will not maker her happy, which is of course ludicrous.

Now, practical requirements may force you to forego polling everyone in society. You may need to guess what will make people happy and unhappy. But that's not an Arrow paradox. The Arrow paradox is that, in an environment where everyone's preference is known exactly, there is no group decision-making process that will get the "right" decision.

Utilitarianism "solves" Arrow's paradox because it's got more information -- under utilitarianism, you know not only what everyone prefers, but by how much they prefer it. In technical terms, it neglects the so-called "ordinality" assumption because it does not treat strong preferences equivalently to weak preferences.
If you have something to add to this bshoc, but don't wish to join the forum, post your objection to the above and I'll put it up there for you. If not tho, I'd like you to read http://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/Phil160,Fall02/thomson.htm then explain to me how you still justify your view that because a fetus has a right to life and is (in your opinion, but the link accepts it) a living human being, that means that the mother does not have the right to abort.
 
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banco55

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transcendent said:
Zomg Nonsense You Just Won The Bloody Arguement Closed Thread Now!
It was a reference to a famous argument about rights by Bentham. If you were familiar with the argument my "nonsense on stilts" comment would make perfect sense.
 

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Abortion = Murder.

How can you females even consider murdering your unborn child? This fact perplexes me. You want to murder an innocent child so your life is better. Disgraceful.

"But I can't afford to raise it" - well maybe you should have considered that prior to engaging in sex. You can still put it up for adoption, or go to the Church which helps women in "crisis pregnancies" both financially and emotionally regardless of your beliefs.

So there is no excuse. Take responsibility for your actions. The same goes for males, so dont go calling me a "woman hater." Those males who force the female to get an abortion are worse than the doctors who actually perform the operation.

Here is this image, one more time. WARNING - very graphic:

http://www.geocities.com/kekogut/images/10_week.jpg
 
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BradCube

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transcendent said:
If I had a child with Down's Syndrome, I'd prefer if they died.
That seems like a pretty harsh conclusion to make. There are many parents who do have children with down syndrome that do not want them to die.

As well as this I am sure that many people that have Down's Syndrome do not want to die.
transcendent said:
Unless my child is the best I would not want it.
It seems to me that none of us are "the best". We are all imperfect from the word go. To apply this same logic to real life, your child would not be wanted unless they won and suceeded at everything they did.

Maybe I am missing your point, but these statements really don't seem just to me.
 

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