The Abortion Debate (continued) (1 Viewer)

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katie_tully

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It's like saying do men who have varicocele kill their potential babies in the testicles.

Dumb argument, you're just grasping at straws when you play the 'lolz what about the sperm!' argument.

I guess it means women are killing potential unborn babies every time they ovulate and menstruate without impregnation. Stfu Dom.
 

Enteebee

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More it highlights how stupid a strawman you set up. When they talk about it being a potential full human being, they're saying that left unabated the zygote will grow and a child will be born. Once you've already got a creature growing in you I think it's in a much different state than the separate ingredients of sperm and eggs...
 

Enteebee

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From the perspective of the potential life it makes no difference if they are prevented from existing by the use of contraceptives or by an abortion.
The difference I suppose is that it's a likely life without outside volition, whereas the eggs/sperm are only a potential life by the actions of others. As for the 'perspective' of the potential life, that's unimportant.

I don't think it makes sense to claim having eggs, milk and flour in your house is 'destroying a potential cake' as much as if you mixed them all together, put them in the oven then took it out prematurely would be. The ingredients themselves are NOT a cake yet and they never will be on their own, but once you've mixed them all together and they're in the oven sooner or later you'll have a cake.
 
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katie_tully

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zimmerman8k said:
What difference does the process make to the human life that doesn't get a chance to be born? From the perspective of the potential life it makes no difference if they are prevented from existing by the use of contraceptives or by an abortion.
That is the dumbest load of shit I've read in a long time.

Fail in human reproduction zimmerman.
 

bshoc

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Enteebee said:
A human being doesn't have a right to burden another human being with their life, i.e. If I needed an extremely rare type of blood transfusion to survive and only you have the blood, you wake up and we're attached together in a hospital and basically it'll be 6 months until it's over, you have more than a right imo to unplug yourself and leave me to die.
I entirely agree with that statement as is.

What I think you need to factor in to understand the basic fundamental rights argument is responsibiliy, a woman who is directly responsible for creating a child has no grounds to kill it.
 

bshoc

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Enteebee said:
But it is right to let another person die sometimes, right?
Not in the specific context of this thread.
 
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katie_tully

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bshoc said:
I entirely agree with that statement as is.

What I think you need to factor in to understand the basic fundamental rights argument is responsibiliy, a woman who is directly responsible for creating a child has no grounds to kill it.
She's directly responsible for it means she's directly responsible for herself too, thus woman > baby.
 

Enteebee

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I think that's where the more contentious argument is... but I mean at the very least, wouldn't women who tried to not have a child by using the pill, having their boyfriend wear a condom etc be likely candidates for an acceptable abortion?
 

bshoc

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irec
katie_tully said:
She's directly responsible for it means she's directly responsible for herself too, thus woman > baby.
She is directly responsible for her own actions, not the life/death outcome of the child, nobody in society should have that kind of legal immunity, thats why I oppose capital punishment as well.
 
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katie_tully

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bshoc said:
irec

She is directly responsible for her own actions, not the life/death outcome of the child, nobody in society should have that kind of legal immunity, thats why I oppose capital punishment as well.
If she isn't responsible for its life/death outcome in her womb, why is she responsible for its life/death outcome when it's born.
 
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bshoc said:
irec

She is directly responsible for her own actions, not the life/death outcome of the child, nobody in society should have that kind of legal immunity, thats why I oppose capital punishment as well.
So a mother is/should be legally liable if she chooses abortion? To whom? To the (dead/non existent) child? To the child's family? Oh wait, that's herself...
LLBers, help me out. What's the legalese on suing oneself?
 

Quiet Please

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Day 1: Conception - a unique human life begins

3 weeks: Heart beats with baby's own blood

6 weeks: Brainwaves detected

8 weeks: Baby is kicking, fingerprints form

9 weeks: Baby can hear, turn head, and frown, hiccup, and react to loud noises

11 weeks: All bodily systems are functioning. Baby can grasp, yawn, suck and swallow, as well as feel and smell

12 weeks: Bodily parts that enable pain sensation are in place

13 to 15 weeks: A baby's taste buds resemble a mature adult's. The baby tastes the flavours of its mother's meals through the amniotic fluid

20 weeks: Baby can recognise its mother's voice

21 weeks: Babies born at this stage are sometimes saved

28 weeks: Baby breathes amniotic fluid, moves and kicks

34 weeks: Baby opens and closes eyes

38-40 weeks: Birth
 

boris

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Quiet Please said:
Day 1: Conception - a unique human life begins

3 weeks: Heart beats with baby's own blood

6 weeks: Brainwaves detected

8 weeks: Baby is kicking, fingerprints form

9 weeks: Baby can hear, turn head, and frown, hiccup, and react to loud noises

11 weeks: All bodily systems are functioning. Baby can grasp, yawn, suck and swallow, as well as feel and smell

12 weeks: Bodily parts that enable pain sensation are in place

13 to 15 weeks: A baby's taste buds resemble a mature adult's. The baby tastes the flavours of its mother's meals through the amniotic fluid

20 weeks: Baby can recognise its mother's voice

21 weeks: Babies born at this stage are sometimes saved

28 weeks: Baby breathes amniotic fluid, moves and kicks

34 weeks: Baby opens and closes eyes

38-40 weeks: Birth
What is your point?
 

Kwayera

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Quiet Please said:
Day 1: Conception - a unique human life begins

3 weeks: Heart beats with baby's own blood

6 weeks: Brainwaves detected

8 weeks: Baby is kicking, fingerprints form

9 weeks: Baby can hear, turn head, and frown, hiccup, and react to loud noises

11 weeks: All bodily systems are functioning. Baby can grasp, yawn, suck and swallow, as well as feel and smell

12 weeks: Bodily parts that enable pain sensation are in place

13 to 15 weeks: A baby's taste buds resemble a mature adult's. The baby tastes the flavours of its mother's meals through the amniotic fluid

20 weeks: Baby can recognise its mother's voice

21 weeks: Babies born at this stage are sometimes saved

28 weeks: Baby breathes amniotic fluid, moves and kicks

34 weeks: Baby opens and closes eyes

38-40 weeks: Birth
I do not accept this. Given that proper scientific terms are not used (i.e. "embryo" or "nervous system" etc) and the fact that they're plain mistaken in some points ("all bodily systems are functioning" - EXCEPT NOT WOW, LIKE THE DIGESTIVE SYSTEM AND THE NERVOUS SYSTEM), I call shens.

And yes, your point?
 

boris

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Fuck the rest of the shit, I took exception to Day 1 when a human life began.

I don't think so.

I lol'd at this though
12 weeks: Bodily parts that enable pain sensation are in place
 

Kwayera

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<3 Wikipedia.


8 to 15 weeks

The fetal stage commences at eight weeks when the fetus is typically about 30 mm (1.2 inches) in length from crown to rump and the head makes up nearly half of the fetus' size.[8]. The fetus cannot feel pain in this trimester (because pain centers in the brain are not yet present)[9], the fetus is not yet sentient[10], and it moves involuntarily as tissues, organs and pathways begin to develop.[11][12] The movements include motor patterns, and localized movement of the arms and legs, hiccups, stretches and yawns,[11][13] sideward bendings of the head, and generalized movements that involve the whole body.[11]. These movements are involuntary, and the parts of the fetal brain that control movement will not fully form until late in the second trimester, and the first part of the third trimester.[14]

At this stage, the heart is beating but not functional.[15]The hands, feet, head, brain, and other organs are present, but not yet functional.[16] The breathing-like movement of the fetus is necessary for stimulation of lung development, rather than for obtaining oxygen.[17]

At nine weeks the fetus' involuntary movements include curling toes to move away from an object,[18] and fingers are structurally able to bend. [19] From weeks 9 to 12, the fetal eyelids close and remain closed for several months, and the appearance of the genitals in males and females becomes more apparent.[6] Tooth buds appear, the limbs are long and thin, and red blood cells are produced in the liver, however the majority of red blood cells will be made later in gestation (at 21 weeks) by bone marrow.[20] A fine hair called lanugo develops on the head. The gastrointestinal tract, still forming, starts to collect sloughed skin and lanugo, as well as hepatic products, forming meconium (stool).[21] Fetal skin is almost transparent. More muscle tissue and bones have developed, and the bones become harder. The first measurable signs of EEG movement occur in the 12th week.[22] By the end of this stage, the fetus has reached about 15 cm (6 inches).


16 to 25 weeks

The lanugo covers the entire body. Eyebrows, eyelashes, fingernails, and toenails appear. The fetus has increased muscle development. Alveoli (air sacs) are forming in lungs. The nervous system develops enough to control some body functions. The cochlea are now developed, though the myelin sheaths in the neural portion of the auditory system will continue to develop until 18 months after birth. The respiratory system has developed to the point where gas exchange is possible. The quickening, the first maternally discernable fetal movements, are often felt during this period. A woman pregnant for the first time (i.e. a primiparous woman) typically feels fetal movements at about 18-19 weeks, whereas a woman who has already given birth at least two times (i.e. a multiparous woman) will typically feel movements around 16 weeks.[23] By the end of the fifth month, the fetus is about 20 cm (8 inches).


26 to 38 weeks

The amount of body fat rapidly increases. Lungs are not fully mature. Thalamic brain connections, which mediate sensory input, form. Bones are fully developed, but are still soft and pliable. Iron, calcium, and phosphorus become more abundant. Fingernails reach the end of the fingertips. The lanugo begins to disappear, until it is gone except on the upper arms and shoulders. Small breast buds are present on both sexes. Head hair becomes coarse and thicker. Birth is imminent and occurs around the 38th week. The fetus is considered full-term between weeks 35 and 40,[24] which means that the fetus is considered sufficiently developed for life outside the uterus.[25] It may be 48 to 53 cm (19 to 21 inches) in length, when born.



Debunk'd.
 
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boris

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He got that off some right for life website, I am sureof it.
 

KFunk

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Quiet Please said:
11 weeks: All bodily systems are functioning. Baby can grasp, yawn, suck and swallow, as well as feel and smell
I'm not sure that 'functioning' is quite the right way to put it. What are the chances of an 11 wk fetus surviving outside the womb? Nil. The 'lungs' aren't at all adequate for gas exchange at this point. And, as Kwayera pointed out, the nervous system and GIT are significantly underdeveloped.

From wiki: the youngest suviving premature baby was 21 wks and 5 days. Note that this undoutedly involved a great deal of medical intervention.
 

boris

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21 weeks. Holy hell.

I've seen first hand what is required to keep a 30 week baby alive, let alone 21.

Don't babies who are born this premature often go on to have respiratory problems later in life?
 

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