The Crises of Capitalism (1 Viewer)

[SylviaB]

 

[TacoTerrorist]

I don't see how you can disagree with or not see the sense of this video. Harvey is attacking corporatism. Capitalism, or what's called capitalism (because we don't have it, thankfully) can only be expressed within the free market doctrine. The free market won't ever emerge because no one except poorly educated Fox News-watching mouthbreather Americans and overweight pseudo-intellectual Rothbard/Friedman regurgitators want it. You can go on and on about how greed is great and how the rising tide lifts all boats, but reasonable people don't want to live in a world where a banker or some other piece of shit earns more than some poor fucker doing a 12 hour shift at a saw mill. More prudently, wealth buys power. There are too many ludicrously wealthy people pulling the strings and too many shockingly poor people living on the street. Nothing will change until we burn down Parliament, hang the bankers by their ties and throw the rich off their fucking skyscrapers.

 

[IamVooDoo]

I don't see how you can disagree with or not see the sense of this video. Harvey is attacking corporatism. Capitalism, or what's called capitalism (because we don't have it, thankfully) can only be expressed within the free market doctrine. The free market won't ever emerge because no one except poorly educated Fox News-watching mouthbreather Americans and overweight pseudo-intellectual Rothbard/Friedman regurgitators want it. You can go on and on about how greed is great and how the rising tide lifts all boats, but reasonable people don't want to live in a world where a banker or some other piece of shit earns more than some poor fucker doing a 12 hour shift at a saw mill. More prudently, wealth buys power. There are too many ludicrously wealthy people pulling the strings and too many shockingly poor people living on the street. Nothing will change until we burn down Parliament, hang the bankers by their ties and throw the rich off their fucking skyscrapers.

XD
BTW. The reason why that "douchebag" (me) isn't replying anymore is because I tried to have a mature debate, and you guys ended up resorting to some pretty harsh name calling when I did nothing to provoke you. Pretty childish really :/

 

[Rothbard]

I don't see how you can disagree with or not see the sense of this video. Harvey is attacking corporatism. Capitalism, or what's called capitalism (because we don't have it, thankfully) can only be expressed within the free market doctrine. The free market won't ever emerge because no one except poorly educated Fox News-watching mouthbreather Americans and overweight pseudo-intellectual Rothbard/Friedman regurgitators want it. You can go on and on about how greed is great and how the rising tide lifts all boats, but reasonable people don't want to live in a world where a banker or some other piece of shit earns more than some poor fucker doing a 12 hour shift at a saw mill. More prudently, wealth buys power. There are too many ludicrously wealthy people pulling the strings and too many shockingly poor people living on the street. Nothing will change until we burn down Parliament, hang the bankers by their ties and throw the rich off their fucking skyscrapers.

To put it plainly dude because the alternative is nothing less than slavery.

 

[Rothbard]

XD
BTW. The reason why that "douchebag" (me) isn't replying anymore is because I tried to have a mature debate, and you guys ended up resorting to some pretty harsh name calling when I did nothing to provoke you. Pretty childish really :/

Suck a dick then.

 

[SylviaB]

The free market won't ever emerge because no one except poorly educated Fox News-watching mouthbreather Americans and overweight pseudo-intellectual Rothbard/Friedman regurgitators want it.

Considering that you have in all likelihood never read a book by Rothbard in your life...

You can go on and on about how greed is great and how the rising tide lifts all boats, but reasonable people don't want to live in a world where a banker or some other piece of shit earns more than some poor fucker doing a 12 hour shift at a saw mill.

It's funny, you are forever talking about how bad our current system is, but you haven't got a single example of whatever it is you advocate functioning on a large scale better than current (mixed) market economies.

Also, bankers wages are greatly inflated by state action, granted, but the skills possessed by good bankers are far more scarce than those possessed by 'saw mill workers' or whatever. It is a god thing bankers get paid more, because just like prices allocate resources efficiently, the salaries of jobs allocate labour efficiently.

More prudently, wealth buys power. There are too many ludicrously wealthy people pulling the strings and too many shockingly poor people living on the street.

all the state's fault

and throw the rich off their fucking skyscrapers.

tell me more about your magical society where workers magically know what goods to produce and where factories build themselves!


btw nice job running away from the 'no such thing as the free market thread'

your arse gets absolutely handed to you time and time again, so you stop replying and start posting the exact same shit in new threads

what you believe is extremely retarded, so stop running away from our arguments

 

[Rothbard]

I love the fact that he's horrendously anti-war which is murdering people because they're different from us or a perceived slight

but he wants to murder the rich BECAUSE THEY'RE RICH

MURDER THEM.

Fucking hell.

 

[davidbarnes]

XD
BTW. The reason why that "douchebag" (me) isn't replying anymore is because I tried to have a mature debate, and you guys ended up resorting to some pretty harsh name calling when I did nothing to provoke you. Pretty childish really :/

I agree. When people start swearing at you and attacking you when you reply, its simply not worth replying again in the thread.

 

[SylviaB]

I agree. When people start swearing at you and attacking you when you reply, its simply not worth replying again in the thread.

when people swear its simply not worth it

 

[cosmo kramer]

fuk u

 

[TacoTerrorist]

Considering that you have in all likelihood never read a book by Rothbard in your life...

I've read enough of his bullshit to know that it's all unsubstantiated crap.

It's funny, you are forever talking about how bad our current system is, but you haven't got a single example of whatever it is you advocate functioning on a large scale better than current (mixed) market economies.

I have actually, on multiple occasions.

http://struggle.ws/rbr/rbr1_synd.html

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1110492/the_rise_and_fall_of_anarchosyndicalism.html

What we have isn't capitalism, so why do you defend it?

Also, bankers wages are greatly inflated by state action, granted, but the skills possessed by good bankers are far more scarce than those possessed by 'saw mill workers' or whatever. It is a god thing bankers get paid more, because just like prices allocate resources efficiently, the salaries of jobs allocate labour efficiently.

Bullshit. The system allocates resources very poorly, thanks in part to the state. Why are you defending the corporatocracy?

all the state's fault

Do you mean that the wealthy in a stateless free market society would have just as much power as anyone else or that everyone will be roughly as prosperous as one another? I assume the former. I'm not even going to bother refuting that, read a history book.

tell me more about your magical society where workers magically know what goods to produce and where factories build themselves!

I don't think you know anything about Syndicalism.

btw nice job running away from the 'no such thing as the free market thread'

your arse gets absolutely handed to you time and time again, so you stop replying and start posting the exact same shit in new threads

what you believe is extremely retarded, so stop running away from our arguments

I forgot about that thread when I started a new one. But bring it faggot, I'll reply. All you can do is parrot Ayn Rand-esque crap. I kick your ass every time you capitalist twerp. Your arguments are a joke. No one wants to live in a society envisioned by such pieces of shit as Murray Rothbard. Even a child can tell you that inequality = bad.

 

[TacoTerrorist]

I love the fact that he's horrendously anti-war which is murdering people because they're different from us or a perceived slight

but he wants to murder the rich BECAUSE THEY'RE RICH

MURDER THEM.

Fucking hell.

You want to pull Sylvester's dick out of your mouth? Even you can agree that the rich essentially control how our economic and social systems operate. They have far too much power and I'd have no problem killing them, as with any other authoritarian figure.

 

[SylviaB]

I've read enough of his bullshit to know that it's all unsubstantiated crap.

so no. You don't know the first thing about austrian economics. You read a paragraph and it goes against your pre-conceived notions of 'justice' so you dismiss it instantly, I'm guessing.

I have actually, on multiple occasions.

http://struggle.ws/rbr/rbr1_synd.html

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1110492/the_rise_and_fall_of_anarchosyndicalism.html

Erm, these discuss syndicalist movements, but doesn't provide any evidence or explanation of syndicalism working on a large scale, nor have I been able to fine any.

Market based economies, on the other hand, have got millions of people raised out of poverty, societies becoming the most prosperous in history after being founded less than two centuries earlier, the majority of modern technological innovations...it goes on.

What we have isn't capitalism, so why do you defend it?

We have a fundamentally market based economy. State inerference creates massive distortions, but the reason things generally work well is because of teh market side of things.

Bullshit. The system allocates resources very poorly, thanks in part to the state.

The price system is the only way resources are allocated efficiently. In soviet russia, there was chaos. There were warehouses full of rusting machines, and a huge shortage of raw materials that these machines process. The state creates distortions, of course, but I'm speaking broadly of any economic system (or sector of said system) that uses the price system.

High prices (eg wages) represent high demand, people seek to satisfy this demand, and so labour gravitates towards where it is needed, as deemed by society on aggregate.

Do you mean that the wealthy in a stateless free market society would have just as much power as anyone else or that everyone will be roughly as prosperous as one another? I assume the former. I'm not even going to bother refuting that, read a history book.

Erm no, I'm saying that the super wealthy A, et their wealth through the state, and B, use this wealth to get power through the state.

I don't think you know anything about Syndicalism.

Sure I do. An economy, if you can call it that, without money and entrepreneurs would be chaos.

All you can do is parrot Ayn Rand-esque crap

I haven't brought up morality once, thank you very much.

. I kick your ass every time you capitalist twerp.

I'm not a capitalist, I'm a worker!

And no, your arguments consist of emotive subjective value claims. You prattle endlessly about helping the poor, and then we demonstrate that free enterprise has helped the poor more than anything else has. You then point to some example of a corporation colluding with a state as some sort of refutation, even though you admit in this very thread that this is not what we're advocating.

No one wants to live in a society envisioned by such pieces of shit as Murray Rothbard.
Even a child can tell you that inequality = bad.

So, people don't want to live in a society where they have a high standard of living and individual liberty? Wow, okay then.

This "equality" crap is pure bs.

Here's the two options:

-Market based economies: Varying degrees of prosperity

-Non-market based 'economies': Equal distribution of poverty

 

[Kim Il-Sung]

Syndicalism in a nutshell:

The idea of syndicalism represents the attempt to adapt the ideal of the equal distribution of property to the circumstances of modern large-scale industry. Syndicalism seeks to invest ownership of the means of production neither in individuals nor in society, but in the workers employed in each industry or branch of production.

Since the proportion in which the material and the personal factors of production are combined is different in the different branches of production, equality in the distribution of property cannot be attained in this way at all. From the very outset the worker will receive a greater portion of property in some branches of industry than in others. One has only to consider the difficulties that must arise from the necessity, continually present in any economy, of shifting capital and labor from one branch of production to another. Will it be possible to withdraw capital from one branch of industry in order thereby more generously to equip another? Will it be possible to remove workers from one branch of production in order to transfer them to another where the quota of capital per worker is smaller? The impossibility of such transfers renders the syndicalist commonwealth utterly absurd and impracticable as a form of social organization. Yet if we assume that over and above the individual groups there exists a central power that is entitled to carry out such transfers, we are no longer dealing with syndicalism, but with socialism. In reality, syndicalism as a social ideal is so absurd that only muddleheads who have not sufficiently thought the problem through have ventured to advocate it on principle.

 

[SylviaB]

Yeah, muddlehead!

 

[TacoTerrorist]

so no. You don't know the first thing about austrian economics. You read a paragraph and it goes against your pre-conceived notions of 'justice' so you dismiss it instantly, I'm guessing.

No. I read quite a lot of it, and most of it ignored how the real world actually functions or proposed ideas that aren't functional. Rothbard wasn't interested in creating a decent society, he was interested in removing barriers to wealth and power for the capitalist class. All moves towards free trade benefit only a tiny amount of people at the top of the pyramid. NAFTA, Reaganomics etc fucking raped South America.

Erm, these discuss syndicalist movements, but doesn't provide any evidence or explanation of syndicalism working on a large scale, nor have I been able to fine any.

Dude, you've heard of the Spanish Civil War, come on. It holds a lot more weight than any free market fantasy.

Market based economies, on the other hand, have got millions of people raised out of poverty, societies becoming the most prosperous in history after being founded less than two centuries earlier, the majority of modern technological innovations...it goes on.

And yet civil unrest is peaking worldwide, real wages are dropping, working hours are increasing despite the violent struggles for the 8 hour day, the environment is fucked, people are still being bombed and killed by the thousand in the name of profit, suicide rates in Western countries are high and depression is widespread in industrialised nations. Private property is turning humans into robotic automata.

http://thedepression.org.au/?p=1802

ttp://online.wsj.com/article/SB118005313993514160.html?mod=home_whats_news_us

Even the WALL STREET JOURNAL admits that workers are increasingly worse off. The gap between rich and poor is ridiculous, and growing. Well you can say that this is all the fault of the state and that within a free market this kind of thing wouldn't happen. What about the pre-Reagan American economic system? Far better off than under his economic conservatism.

We have a fundamentally market based economy. State inerference creates massive distortions, but the reason things generally work well is because of teh market side of things.

That's a logical fallacy.

Things aren't working well at all. Are we on the same planet?

The price system is the only way resources are allocated efficiently. In soviet russia, there was chaos. There were warehouses full of rusting machines, and a huge shortage of raw materials that these machines process. The state creates distortions, of course, but I'm speaking broadly of any economic system (or sector of said system) that uses the price system.

Syndicalism can advocate a price system.

Sure I do. An economy, if you can call it that, without money and entrepreneurs would be chaos.

What's that based on? History paints a different picture. People living on the street outside of a skyscraper seems like chaos to me.

I haven't brought up morality once, thank you very much.

The free market doctrine is the ultimate expression of Rand's staunch individualist ideology.

And no, your arguments consist of emotive subjective value claims. You prattle endlessly about helping the poor, and then we demonstrate that free enterprise has helped the poor more than anything else has. You then point to some example of a corporation colluding with a state as some sort of refutation, even though you admit in this very thread that this is not what we're advocating.

You haven't demonstrated that at all. Give me some examples.

So, people don't want to live in a society where they have a high standard of living and individual liberty? Wow, okay then.

They do, but that's not what a stateless free market provides. A stateless free market provides private tyrannies and gross inequalities in wealth and thus social standing and individual rights.

-Market based economies: Varying degrees of prosperity

-Non-market based 'economies': Equal distribution of poverty

Really? Look at India, the poster child for the free market. The amount of billionaires in India shot up considerably, and yet it has fallen several places on the HDI.

 

[davidbarnes]

So we have finally decided capitalism is not all that great in fact. Took bloody long enough.

 

[Rothbard]

Are you sure you read a book by rothbard that supported reaganomics and NAFTA?

Are you sure it wasn't friedman?

The two are *very* different.

 

[Rothbard]

So we have finally decided capitalism is not all that great in fact. Took bloody long enough.

Yeah fuck those in poverty bro, capitalism blows, right

 

[Rothbard]

Dude, you've heard of the Spanish Civil War, come on. It holds a lot more weight than any free market fantasy.

You mean the one where the communists fought the fascists and both sides committed grotesque war crimes?

UBROPIA