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The Flaw of Monotheism (2 Viewers)

Scorch

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Let me ask a question of those that follow the main monotheistic religions here (Judaism, Christianity, Islam).

God is omnipotent, omni-benevolent and omniscient? Yes? Good.

Now whilst it is basically a fact that modern humans have been around for the past 200,000 years (that is, in our relatively current form, as opposed to earlier hominid evolution which we can trace back for millions of years before), let us operate with a minutely small assumption that they have been around for only 70,000 years.

Monotheistic religion emerged about 4,000 years ago, yes?

So for 66,000 years, God watches. He watches while humans die, mostly of simple bodily infection, with ridiculously high infant mortality rates. They probably live for perhaps 20-30 years, on average, in comparatively squalid conditions, and die in horribly painful ways. For 66,000 years God watches and does nothing. He watches as humanity suffers and toils, as thousands of generations struggle and die in such conditions, as thousands of children die before they reach the age of 3 and does absolutely nothing.

This is to say nothing of the wars and evils they will inflict upon eachother, as opposed to those they suffer by virtue of their very existence.

After 66,000 years (perhaps 62,000 to anticipate the argument that the events described in the earliest parts of the Bible constitute an intervention) of such suffering, God decides "that's enough of this, I'll fix all this up" and finally decides to intervene in the world by picking one group of people and furthering their cause to the detriment of those who once inhabited the land that he helped them violently invade (what a coincidence, those people just happened to write that book, but let's put that aside for a second).

Several thousand years later, he decides that his previous solution really won't do, and says "I'll fix this up again", essentially by offering human sacrifice in the most brutal and torturous of ways.

How fortunate that the evidence to suggest that such a ghastly dogma is true is precisely nil.

Why is it, then, that such a nonsensical ideology currently holds an inordinate amount of control over the legislative and executive governmental arms of many apparently secular nations, such as ours and the USA?
 
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Scorch

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Did you have a point?
Mainly pointing out the flaw of a nonsensical ideology that currently holds an inordinate amount of control over the legislative and executive governmental arms of many apparently secular nations, such as ours and America.

I did edit the original post to pose the question more directly, thank you. Perhaps I was a bit vague in asking people to make the link.
 

dydx

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Quite verbose, could you sum it up so i could understand please?

PS: i'm stupid.
 

Scorch

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Quite verbose, could you sum it up so i could understand please?

PS: i'm stupid.
Religion emerged 4000 years ago, claiming that God loved us all and created us. This makes no sense as for quite probably 200,000 years previously, modern humans died painfully of simple bodily infections with high rates of death in early childhood and disgusting living conditions and he, if religion is to be believed, simply watched and did nothing while this happened and only decided to intervene after 196,000 years of human suffering, pain and death.

This is one of the many flaws of such nonsensical dogma yet this nonsense holds sway over the parliaments and governments and their decisions in many secular states, such as ours.

If you'd like me to clarify anything, I'm happy to.
 

funkshen

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Why is it, then, that such a nonsensical ideology currently holds an inordinate amount of control over the legislative and executive governmental arms of many apparently secular nations, such as ours and the USA?
Because it helps people sleep at night; because it helps them get through the day.

If you have a credible alternative to religion to help the poor sheep sleep then let them hear it. But if you don't then don't be so dumbfounded and bitter.
 

Scorch

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Because it helps people sleep at night; because it helps them get through the day.

If you have a credible alternative to religion to help the poor sheep sleep then let them hear it. But if you don't then don't be so dumbfounded and bitter.
That is absurd. Because some people that are unwilling to confront the realities of the world, both scientific and moral, do not wish to change, the rest of those who suffer discrimination at the hands of a governmental system dominated by such ideology (homosexuals being the prime example, here) because it helps those people sleep at night?

The credible alternative is already there and it is a proper understanding of the world, complete with tolerance and rationality, as opposed to baseless discrimination against real people based on violent, Bronze-Aged myths.

Though I would question the world-view of a person who is so unsure of their own rationality that they must invent deities to simply "get them through the day".
 

funkshen

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That is absurd. Because some people that are unwilling to confront the realities of the world, both scientific and moral, do not wish to change, the rest of those who suffer discrimination at the hands of a governmental system dominated by such ideology (homosexuals being the prime example, here) because it helps those people sleep at night?

The credible alternative is already there and it is a proper understanding of the world, complete with tolerance and rationality, as opposed to baseless discrimination against real people based on violent, Bronze-Aged myths.

Though I would question the world-view of a person who is so unsure of their own rationality that they must invent deities to simply "get them through the day".
Just because you can't comprehend such foolishness doesn't mean it isn't true. It's probably why you're not a believer yourself.

There is no "proper understanding of the world, complete with tolerance and rationality". Science and rationality have only produced an overwhelming number of theories and bodies of knowledge which many find truly frightening; being incapable of approaching this science from a 'critical distance' due to their belief in god all they see is the chaos and futility of humanity and the universe; the anathema of faith.

Didn't you ever see the episode of the Simpson's when they're indoctrinated into the false cult, but Bart and Lisa are turned when they're offered hover bikes? Find something better than religion and offer it to the believers and see how they turn.
 

trickx

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This point, originally made by Christopher Hitchens, is the primary argument by which makes monotheism in the highest degree, extremely improbable in respect to its truth claims.

But to Scorch, I think the premise to your question is wrong. Religion has no control on most Western governments - executive or legislative. Particularly America, where Christianity is tied up greatly with their history, but their constitution is strictly secular. The Founding Fathers were undoubtedly atheist (a few maybe deists) but they wrote the constitution to say religion can have no say in political affairs. It is almost the same with Australia and the Commonwealth, with the gradual separation of Church and State over time.

You're confusing history with law.

A better question after making the point would be, "HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU BELIEVE IN A LOVING AND JUST GOD THAT JUST SITS THERE WHILE TJHIS SHIT HAPPENS FOR THOUSANDS OF FUCKING YEARS?"
 
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Durga

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This point, originally made by Christopher Hitchens, is the primary argument by which makes monotheism in the highest degree, extremely improbable in respect to its truth claims.

But to Scorch, I think the premise to your question is wrong. Religion has no control on most Western governments - executive or legislative. Particularly America, where Christianity is tied up greatly with their history, but their constitution is strictly secular. The Founding Fathers were undoubtedly atheist (a few maybe deists) but they wrote the constitution to say religion can have no say in political affairs. It is almost the same with Australia and the Commonwealth, with the gradual separation of Church and State over time.

You're confusing history with law.

A better question after making the point would be, "HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU BELIEVE IN A LOVING AND JUST GOD THAT JUST SITS THERE WHILE TJHIS SHIT HAPPENS FOR THOUSANDS OF FUCKING YEARS?"
Hitchens is a great writer, I recently finished his book, although it's been overshadowed by The Great Gatsby (had to read for English).

But in reply to to trickx, religion has much power over certain Western governments, namely America, and to a lesser degree, Australia.

A few clear examples are:

- Why aren't homosexuals allowed to marry each other?
- Why isn't euthanasia legal?
- Why is there a debate in America and Britain about the teaching of Intelligent Design as a viable alternative to evolution? Furthermore, why did George W. Bush say that there was no problem in this, and that it is a viable alternative?

While religion does not have an absolute grasp on the state, its influence is undeniably strong and powerful.
 

pope_brad

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Where on earth do you get the idea that the human race is 200,000 years old... because the current estimate is 37,000 or less and if you go from the bible its between 6000 and 25000

First, it must be observed that current estimates for the age of mankind are still all over the board. The lack of reliable dating methods for organic material is a serious challenge for all paleo-anthropologists. This might surprise you, but the only reliable dating method for organic material is Carbon-14 dating. This procedure can date organic material such as bones and teeth accurately but only to a maximum of 25,000-30,000 years. Dating older organic material is nothing more than guesswork. In many cases these guesses rely on “leap of faith” assumptions by dating the rocks found near the organic material in question, wildly asserting these rocks were formed at the same time as the bones/skull/teeth were deposited. Obviously that is not science, but only wishful thinking.

and to say that people died more painfully then, where does that come from? What about the plagues of the middle ages, or outbrakes of plagues even more recently in the 17th century.
 

Ayatollah

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Let me ask a question of those that follow the main monotheistic religions here (Judaism, Christianity, Islam).

God is omnipotent, omni-benevolent and omniscient? Yes? Good.

Now whilst it is basically a fact that modern humans have been around for the past 200,000 years (that is, in our relatively current form, as opposed to earlier hominid evolution which we can trace back for millions of years before), let us operate with a minutely small assumption that they have been around for only 70,000 years.

Monotheistic religion emerged about 4,000 years ago, yes?

So for 66,000 years, God watches. He watches while humans die, mostly of simple bodily infection, with ridiculously high infant mortality rates. They probably live for perhaps 20-30 years, on average, in comparatively squalid conditions, and die in horribly painful ways. For 66,000 years God watches and does nothing. He watches as humanity suffers and toils, as thousands of generations struggle and die in such conditions, as thousands of children die before they reach the age of 3 and does absolutely nothing.

This is to say nothing of the wars and evils they will inflict upon eachother, as opposed to those they suffer by virtue of their very existence.

After 66,000 years (perhaps 62,000 to anticipate the argument that the events described in the earliest parts of the Bible constitute an intervention) of such suffering, God decides "that's enough of this, I'll fix all this up" and finally decides to intervene in the world by picking one group of people and furthering their cause to the detriment of those who once inhabited the land that he helped them violently invade (what a coincidence, those people just happened to write that book, but let's put that aside for a second).

Several thousand years later, he decides that his previous solution really won't do, and says "I'll fix this up again", essentially by offering human sacrifice in the most brutal and torturous of ways.

How fortunate that the evidence to suggest that such a ghastly dogma is true is precisely nil.

Why is it, then, that such a nonsensical ideology currently holds an inordinate amount of control over the legislative and executive governmental arms of many apparently secular nations, such as ours and the USA?
why do you plagiarize Christopher Hitchens? do you worship him or something? Is he your God?

Now who's the irrational fundamentalist.
 

Bereie

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Why is it, then, that such a nonsensical ideology currently holds an inordinate amount of control over the legislative and executive governmental arms of many apparently secular nations, such as ours and the USA?
Religion is retarded etc. etc. but the reason it has influence over politics in supposedly secular nations like Australia is because there has to be a balance between secularism and democracy. A truly secular and democratic government could only be reached if the majority of the population just weren't religious.
 

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