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the fuck is with equality (1 Viewer)

SylviaB

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firstly let me me clarify: I mean social/economic 'egalitarian' equality, not 'equal rights' or 'equal in the eyes of the law' or whatever

so anyway, I debate with socialist/left-anarchist cunts (e.g. the likes of tacoterrorist) on other forums or irl and all they ever talk about is "equality"

like I've written paragraphs of economic reasoning as to why capitalism is the best way of achieving the highest aggregate standard of living possible, and how socialism has produced nothing but stagnation and poverty wherever it has been introduced

and I honestly get replies like "Well I care about things other than economics, like justice and equality" ugh


So I ask, what's the big deal with "equality"?


Was Soviet Russia good? Because it was a very egalitarian society.
obviously this meant everyone being poor (except the ruling class), but I mean equality is more important than standard of living, right?


[youtube]okHGCz6xxiw[/youtube]
 
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jennyfromdabloc

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Imo this excerpt from Rothbard's Markets and Power provides the best demolition of the whole ridiculous idea of equality.

TL;DR: "Human life is not some sort of race or game in which each person should start from an identical mark. It is an attempt by each man to be as happy as possible. And each person could not begin from the same point, for the world has not just come into being; it is diverse and infinitely varied in its parts. "

Full text which is amazing:

"the diversity of mankind is a basic postulate of our knowledge of human beings. But if mankind is diverse and individuated, then how can anyone propose equality as an ideal? Every year, scholars hold Conferences on Equality and call for greater equality, and no one challenges the basic tenet. But what justification can equality find in the nature of man? If each individual is unique, how else can he be made "equal" to others than by destroying most of what is human in him and reducing human society to the mindless uniformity of the ant heap? It is the task of the egalitarian, who confidently enters the scene to inform the economist of his ultimate ethical goal, to prove his case. He must show how equality can be compatible with the nature of mankind and must defend the feasibility of a possible egalitarian world.

But the egalitarian is in even direr straits, for it can be shown that equality of income is an impossible goal for mankind. Income can never be equal. Income must be considered, of course, in real and not in money terms; otherwise there would be no true equality. Yet real income can never be equalized. For how can a New Yorker's enjoyment of the Manhattan skyline be equalized with an Indian's? How can the New Yorker swim in the Ganges as well as an Indian? Since every individual is necessarily situated in a different space, every individual's real income must differ from good to good and from person to person. There is no way to combine goods of different types, to measure some income "level," so it is meaningless to try to arrive at some sort of "equal" level. The fact must be faced that equality cannot be achieved because it is a conceptually impossible goal for man, by virtue of his necessary dispersion in location and diversity among individuals. But if equality is an absurd (and therefore irrational) goal, then any effort to approach equality is correspondingly absurd. If a goal is pointless, then any attempt to attain it is similarly pointless.

Many people believe that, though equality of income is an absurd ideal, it can be replaced by the ideal of equality of opportunity. Yet this, too, is as meaningless as the former concept. How can the New Yorker's opportunity and the Indian's opportunity to sail around Manhattan, or to swim in the Ganges, be "equalized"? Man's inevitable diversity of location effectively eliminates any possibility of equalizing "opportunity."…

Human life is not some sort of race or game in which each person should start from an identical mark. It is an attempt by each man to be as happy as possible. And each person could not begin from the same point, for the world has not just come into being; it is diverse and infinitely varied in its parts. The mere fact that one individual is necessarily born in a different place from someone else immediately insures that his inherited opportunity cannot be the same as his neighbor's. The drive for equality of opportunity would also require the abolition of the family since different parents have unequal abilities; it would require the communal rearing of children. The State would have to nationalize all babies and raise them in State nurseries under "equal" conditions. But even here conditions cannot be the same, because different State officials will themselves have different abilities and personalities. And equality can never be achieved because of necessary differences of location."
 

SylviaB

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brilliant


"Men are born unequal and..it is precisely their inequality that generates social cooperation and civilisation."
 

Deathless

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I think it's just subjective on whether men are born equal or not. You could say they are born equal in some aspects, and unequal in others. But on the part where there is inequality, isn't that what seperates them and bring human selfishness etc?
 

TacoTerrorist

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Fuck, because economic inequality creates social inequality. Severe economic inequality (like in our society) creates a class system whereby the wealthy have a vested interest in denying rights, information and liberty to the masses.

'Freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice, and Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality'.
— Mikhail Bakunin
 

SylviaB

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creates a class system whereby the wealthy have a vested interest in denying rights, information and liberty to the masses.
the only way this could be achieved is with the state.

'Freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice, and Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality'.
— Mikhail Bakunin
Socialism means everyone is poor and miserable - Me
 

jennyfromdabloc

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Fuck, because economic inequality creates social inequality. Severe economic inequality (like in our society) creates a class system whereby the wealthy have a vested interest in denying rights, information and liberty to the masses.

'Freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice, and Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality'.
— Mikhail Bakunin
Allow me to explain this with an unnecessary Venn diagram:


 

Lolsmith

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The general rule is that to obtain more equality, freedom has to be sacrificed. ie: To obtain egalitarianism, no one can be free to do what they want because it would set them above or below someone else.
 

Lolsmith

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hahaha Margaret Thatchet what a hero

That Parliament vid looks pretty great, they're all having a laugh
 

Elliot220

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Great video, Thatcher was completely right; socialists have no qualms with poverty and low standards of life, as long as everybody is equally poor.

Generally speaking there is freedom and there is equality.
Pick one.

A utopia will never exist; freedom creates inequality and equality restricts freedom. I'd choose economic freedom over economic equality any day.
 
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jb_nc

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*watches penn an teller bullshit*

*is so mad*

*posts thread on bored of studies*
 

Lentern

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firstly let me me clarify: I mean social/economic 'egalitarian' equality, not 'equal rights' or 'equal in the eyes of the law' or whatever

so anyway, I debate with socialist/left-anarchist cunts (e.g. the likes of tacoterrorist) on other forums or irl and all they ever talk about is "equality"

like I've written paragraphs of economic reasoning as to why capitalism is the best way of achieving the highest aggregate standard of living possible, and how socialism has produced nothing but stagnation and poverty wherever it has been introduced

and I honestly get replies like "Well I care about things other than economics, like justice and equality" ugh


So I ask, what's the big deal with "equality"?


Was Soviet Russia good? Because it was a very egalitarian society.
obviously this meant everyone being poor (except the ruling class), but I mean equality is more important than standard of living, right?


[youtube]okHGCz6xxiw[/youtube]
Lies and verballing, shame on you and Mrs Thatcher. Soviet Russia was not egalitarian it was corrupt and elitist. The gentleman, certainly the first one never said what Mrs Thatcher attributed to him and both you and her know it. But why is some degree of equity important? Because competition is what creates productivity. A free market or a mixed market or socialized market will all grind to a stand still in absence of some real competition and there can be no real competition without some equality of opportunity.

When you have children born into upper middle class families, educated at upper mid tier private and catholic schools, enrolled in soccer teams and piano lessons on weekends and given access to a car and a personal laptop computer they can get the degree and the comfortable middle class job with apparently little effort, competition suffers. When the suburbs of Guildford and Merrylands and Granville are awash with children going to failing public schools, being pushed out of school in year ten and eleven to push down class sizes and push up uai averages and falling horribly short of their potential, competition is hurt. The educated middle class aren't producing anywhere near what they could because they aren't being driven by competition because of the inequality of opportunity between them and the kids in Guildford and Granville and Merrylands. Why is equality important? Because equal opportunities are what creates competitiveness and equal opportunities start with equal educations.
 

Lolsmith

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Lies and verballing, shame on you and Mrs Thatcher. Soviet Russia was not egalitarian it was corrupt and elitist. The gentleman, certainly the first one never said what Mrs Thatcher attributed to him and both you and her know it. But why is some degree of equity important? Because competition is what creates productivity. A free market or a mixed market or socialized market will all grind to a stand still in absence of some real competition and there can be no real competition without some equality of opportunity.

When you have children born into upper middle class families, educated at upper mid tier private and catholic schools, enrolled in soccer teams and piano lessons on weekends and given access to a car and a personal laptop computer they can get the degree and the comfortable middle class job with apparently little effort, competition suffers. When the suburbs of Guildford and Merrylands and Granville are awash with children going to failing public schools, being pushed out of school in year ten and eleven to push down class sizes and push up uai averages and falling horribly short of their potential, competition is hurt. The educated middle class aren't producing anywhere near what they could because they aren't being driven by competition because of the inequality of opportunity between them and the kids in Guildford and Granville and Merrylands. Why is equality important? Because equal opportunities are what creates competitiveness and equal opportunities start with equal educations.
Holy shit are you blaming the education system for producing the shit kids in places like Granville?

It's the citizenry that's the problem. Any kid in Western Sydney that drops out in year 10 and 11 is not "forced" to. If they drop averages in those kinds of schools then even attempting to educate them is pointless in itself. Regardless of that fact, no school would ever kick out a student for lacking ability. Blame the parents. Blame the retarded drunkard drug addicts that accidentally breed and are forced to raise children they don't love. Blame them for having poor genetics so their children are stupid. These kids are supplied plenty ample opportunity to be educated to a strong degree in terms of high school. My school is ranked around 550~ in the state and we can still get kids that obtain UAI's higher than those at Ruse and Baulkham Hills. It has nothing to do with the system, but the participants.
 

Lentern

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Holy shit are you blaming the education system for producing the shit kids in places like Granville?

It's the citizenry that's the problem. Any kid in Western Sydney that drops out in year 10 and 11 is not "forced" to. If they drop averages in those kinds of schools then even attempting to educate them is pointless in itself. Regardless of that fact, no school would ever kick out a student for lacking ability. Blame the parents. Blame the retarded drunkard drug addicts that accidentally breed and are forced to raise children they don't love. Blame them for having poor genetics so their children are stupid. These kids are supplied plenty ample opportunity to be educated to a strong degree in terms of high school. My school is ranked around 550~ in the state and we can still get kids that obtain UAI's higher than those at Ruse and Baulkham Hills. It has nothing to do with the system, but the participants.
Education is just the most obvious example of where allowing a lower class and an upper class to develop is hurting competition. Obviously it goes beyond just the school and I didn't say "the child that is private schooled will invariably be at a major advantage" I said a child born into the middle class as opposed to the lower working class. But you're writing off the role of education is rubbish. I'm someone who went from a public school to a private school, at the public school I was one of the top handful of students, at the private school I was probably on the cusp of the top quarter of students. There were students in year six, seven and eight who were forever beating me and comfortably doing so, in the school certificate however I got a higher mark than all but two students from my first school. My UAI was greater than anyone's from the public school.

I have also witnessed first hand, students who want to get their hsc, who want to get to uni told in no uncertain terms that they will live life in hell if they ignore the schools recommendations to go into tafe or what not at the end of year ten. It was horrible, depressing and all too common.
 

TacoTerrorist

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lolsmith said:
Holy shit are you blaming the education system for producing the shit kids in places like Granville?

It's the citizenry that's the problem. Any kid in Western Sydney that drops out in year 10 and 11 is not "forced" to. If they drop averages in those kinds of schools then even attempting to educate them is pointless in itself. Regardless of that fact, no school would ever kick out a student for lacking ability. Blame the parents. Blame the retarded drunkard drug addicts that accidentally breed and are forced to raise children they don't love. Blame them for having poor genetics so their children are stupid. These kids are supplied plenty ample opportunity to be educated to a strong degree in terms of high school. My school is ranked around 550~ in the state and we can still get kids that obtain UAI's higher than those at Ruse and Baulkham Hills. It has nothing to do with the system, but the participants.
Lentern said:
Education is just the most obvious example of where allowing a lower class and an upper class to develop is hurting competition. Obviously it goes beyond just the school and I didn't say "the child that is private schooled will invariably be at a major advantage" I said a child born into the middle class as opposed to the lower working class. But you're writing off the role of education is rubbish. I'm someone who went from a public school to a private school, at the public school I was one of the top handful of students, at the private school I was probably on the cusp of the top quarter of students. There were students in year six, seven and eight who were forever beating me and comfortably doing so, in the school certificate however I got a higher mark than all but two students from my first school. My UAI was greater than anyone's from the public school.

I have also witnessed first hand, students who want to get their hsc, who want to get to uni told in no uncertain terms that they will live life in hell if they ignore the schools recommendations to go into tafe or what not at the end of year ten. It was horrible, depressing and all too common.
I think you both bring up solid points. However, the main problem is that the public school system is underfunded. Also, the 'culture' of working class people in low socioeconomic areas like western Sydney, western Melbourne etc places less value in the importance of a good education. The government knows this, as there needs to be people without a solid education to fill in shitty jobs. An underclass and a lower class are needed to keep workers from demanding better conditions.
 

SylviaB

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I think you both bring up solid points. However, the main problem is that the public school system is underfunded.
Private schools spend less per student than public schools and have far better results.
It's the inherent nature of the system, not a lack of funding.

Also, the 'culture' of working class people in low socioeconomic areas like western Sydney, western Melbourne etc places less value in the importance of a good education. The government knows this, as there needs to be people without a solid education to fill in shitty jobs. An underclass and a lower class are needed to keep workers from demanding better conditions.
haha you're crazy

everyone except for the "lower class" are all conspiring together to oppress the lower class in what seems like a far greater expenditure of resources than the supposed benefits they get from this
 

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