The Law Debate : UNSW or USYD???? (2 Viewers)

[Juliette]

I know I'm not the only one....

99.3 and 99.4 I know there are more of you out there that wanna do combined law - please help me out: I have had so many mixed msgs about USYD vs UNSW. I wanna do psych/international relations/social policy with law

The arguments so far:
USYD:
+Old school so it has a better reputation
-apparently the course not updated in ages
-law is dry, but syd especially boring
+more elective choices
+the focus of the degree is on international law
- great if you wanna be a straight lawyer but not easy to adapt to other alternative career paths
+closer to the city, St James law campus very acessible
- on campus accom a bit pricey/dodgy

UNSW:
+something called diverse assessment with less exams, pick ur learning style?
+pioneered small group teaching so I figure they are the best at it
+ huge Law Society with cool social/professional activities
+more options to combine law with
+a more contemporary/critical approach to law
+more practical experience in the course
- a long way from the city (on campus not too bad tho)

What do you think? What have you heard? What have you decided?

I am 110% listening

 

[Jerry Springer]

Juliette.....
I hear your dilemma! I wanna do law as well but I don't have quite the same debate as you; you see I don't think I'll even get anywhere near those marks you have to get at either of the two. I'm hoping to start off with a BA at Sydney uni and then hopefully transfer to arts/law after first year
When I went to the Sydney uni open day this year I was talking to the guy at the stand, and he kept on saying 'A law degree from Sydney uni and the world is your oyster' My dad seemed to agree, he thinks you could basically do anything you wanted.
i agree, sydney sounds stuffy, but why don't you look at UTS? or Macquarie? or even UNE or Southern Cross? I'm sure they would have a much more contemporary approach to teaching law and there wouldn't be as much 'snootiness' about it. I suppose I'm now a hypocrite for saying I want to go to Sydney! But I'm from the country, 8 hours away and I want to experience city life, plus I really want to go to college.
There's my thoughts...................

 

[chait]

Originally posted by Juliette
I know I'm not the only one....

99.3 and 99.4 I know there are more of you out there that wanna do combined law - please help me out: I have had so many mixed msgs about USYD vs UNSW. I wanna do psych/international relations/social policy with law

The arguments so far:
USYD:
+Old school so it has a better reputation
-apparently the course not updated in ages
-law is dry, but syd especially boring
+more elective choices
+the focus of the degree is on international law
- great if you wanna be a straight lawyer but not easy to adapt to other alternative career paths
+closer to the city, St James law campus very acessible
- on campus accom a bit pricey/dodgy

UNSW:
+something called diverse assessment with less exams, pick ur learning style?
+pioneered small group teaching so I figure they are the best at it
+ huge Law Society with cool social/professional activities
+more options to combine law with
+a more contemporary/critical approach to law
+more practical experience in the course
- a long way from the city (on campus not too bad tho)

What do you think? What have you heard? What have you decided?

I am 110% listening

this is a copy and paste from my other post..

Sydney uni and Melbourne Uni are pretty much considered the top law schools in Australia, though UNSW would not be far behind (especially at the undergrad levels). OVERALL, USYD vies with the ANU and the Uni of Melbourne for the mantle of the most internationally prestigious uni in Australia.

The thing with law degrees is this - they all pretty much cover the same material - they have to - for the purposes of being recognised for admission. u shld also check how the degree is taught.. ie. more emphasis on practice as opposed to theory.
________
if you do plan to practice law, SOME law firms prefer to only hire hire grads from the most prestigious unis (for the img) - so the rep of the uni can count as much as your ability.. most law firms don't do this anymore b/c even ppl who'll make bad lawyers can make it into a 'good' uni. <-- like melbourne uni where they have a v. good rep but the most of the ppl there aren't all that bright - good at socialising, but not much else (was told this by someone who went there) btw the cutoff over there is similar to the USYD/UNSW cutoff.

From what you've listed, UNSW seems the better choice. it's better to go to a uni where u can do well, as well as be happy. you'll get that if you can choose your learning style etc. it looks like UNSW will offer you more career flexibility and flexibility while you're at the uni.

if it's true that USYD doesn't regularly update their courses, it will eventually catch up with them and they'll lose their rep. the contemporary approach to law at UNSW is an advantage - ppl are continually upgrading their skills to keep up with what's happening in their industry, why would you want to do an old fashioned law degree from yesterday?

com/law at UNSW is my 2nd preference.. USYD is 3rd

just a thought..

 

[Juliette]

Thank you both so much for your thoughts *group hug* I am so glad I am not alone in this dilemma!

JERRY- I hear you on the marks side of things but you definitely are going about it the right way to plan on a transfer, I hope you surprise yourself and get in first go. However, please dont feel like I am criticising your decision, but do take a good look at UNSW (Good Universities Guide is a top spot for an objective comparison - check with your careers advisor or library). For example, UNSW graduates ranked their overall uni experience, and respect for acadmic standard higher. I'd love to talk through the complexities of the degree with you too, feel free to email me on juliette_ringrose@hotmail.com

I really hear you on being from the country too, I am only four hours from Syd, but it is still a huge transition. College experience certainly is a big help in that adjustment and both USYD and UNSW have a high % of country kids and good programmes for ruro's who need help settling in (UNSW has a special website if you wanna check it out) Also I have heard UNSW are a little less 'snobby' to ruro's - they seem to really encourage ruro's to come to UNSW (eg, Rural Health week sponsors etc). So far as city uni's UTS has a great practical approach to law (and you can save a year you will need to do at the College of Law by doing an elective called Practical Legal Training) but you would be missing out on college life. However, as listed on the USYD Housing site there are several non-uni affiliated colleges... worth a look.

CHAIT: So that would make your first preference Melb? It would be a great loss for NSW I see where you are coming from with some firms only hiring from the prestigious unis however I would argue UNSW is moving in to be ranked with Sydney (for eg. last year a major UK law firm sought to hire 10 graduates from the top Australian law schools, and decided on all 10 from UNSW - largely due to the more practical/ critical treatment of law, and confidence through Law Society involvement and small group teaching).

I hope you are not too keen on your fisrt preference coz i think it would be a great loss to UNSW to miss out on a student like you. Hope to see you there, all the best for marks on the 20th.

Everyone - Please feel free to throw in your thoughts on this debate!!! I think when making such a huge decision we could all do with as much help and cross-arguments as poss. Also if you want to know more from a UNI students perspective I have posted a similar topic on the Uni Boards site (like avail from home page of boredofstudies.cjb.net with some interesting replies - look under UNSW and UTS links

Thanks again for your thoughts - good brain food

 

[Ozz^E]

Well, the uai is an indicator of demand basically, so UNSW being 0.1 ahead probably means it is in slightly more demand...which i think says something.

 

[chait]

Originally posted by Ozz^E
Well, the uai is an indicator of demand basically, so UNSW being 0.1 ahead probably means it is in slightly more demand...which i think says something.

it also depends on the number of places they have available.

 

[kaseita]

plus as bambul says somewhere, apparently the requirements was higher in unsw than in usyd a few years ago (thought that was the case too for last year, but apparently not)

I hear syd is the best, because it has the most extensive law library, and also the rep.

darn, where's EViL when I need him.

I'm still deciding on this too, not sure syd or unsw. I've got syd as first preference at the moment, but I might change.

 

[Bambul]

Actually USyd is 0.1 ahead. But when you get above 99 that is really neglibible. It's reached the point where the cut-off for both UNSW and USyd are so high that attending either law school will provide you with an advantage when you are out of uni. So if you have the capacity of making it into either one, and want to, then chossing between them can be quite difficult, as you seem to have already pointed out.

The quick way of deciding is:
1. Do you want to be a lawyer? If yes, then goto USyd. If no, goto question 2.
2. Which uni has a better course for your other degree? If one uni is significantly better, then goto that uni. If not, goto question 3.
3. Which uni is "better" (campus, clubs, where are your friends going, location/transport, etc). Goto uni which best fits this criteria.

I chose to go to UNSW basically on the third criteria alone (though I don't do law - didn't get the UAI for it, nor would I want to try to transfer into it, I'm quite happy doing a BEc on its own).

Just remember not to forget the little things! Like if you go to UNSW you will probably have to catch a bus there and back from central each day and this adds between 30-60 mins each day in travel/waiting time plus $5-$10 extra in costs per week which really adds up over the year. Or where your friends are going - 85 people in my grade from my high school went to UNSW with me so I knew lots of people (unfortunately, my closest 5-6 friends went to other unis, which probably counts for a lot, but you can't have everything).

 

[Ozz^E]

oops, sorry....uSYD is O.1 ahead. Thanx Bambul

 

[!meeee!]

anyone stressing about getting +99 remember there are always opportunities to transfer but also a lot of ppl who don't get into law end up happier in another degree
i know that's no consolation. i want to be doing law at usyd so i'm hardly one to talk
btw def usyd over unsw
the campus just has that old style law thing that studying law is all about

 

[Jerry Springer]

anyone stressing about getting +99 remember there are always opportunities to transfer but also a lot of ppl who don't get into law end up happier in another degree
i know that's no consolation. i want to be doing law at usyd so i'm hardly one to talk
btw def usyd over unsw
the campus just has that old style law thing that studying law is all about

I agree, i think usyd has the whole 'i'm a law student, and i'm bloody proud of it' thing happening. everyone's always like nah i'm not snobby about it but if you think about it law has that whole element of pretentiousness abiout it that people crave. like you picture yourself at your high school ten year reunion
Bitchy girl at high school now deadshit: 'And what do you do Jerry?'

Jerry: I'm a justice of the high court. I earn a million a year, ha ha
hi hihi.........

I think half the people doing law are doing it for the whole 'million dollar lifestyle, designer clothes, mosman apartment lifestyle, but i mean i'm not going to lie and say oh, i'm that stuff doesn't matter to me! I guess it's normal to want that kind of element in life . Call me shallow, but isn't the bottom line we all want to get rich! WEll, most of us......
sydney uni feels very prestigious, like you're priviliged to be there (well i know you are but you know what i mean)
I'm going to stop ranting and raving now!

 

[Jesse]

imo, it doesn't matter which uni you end up at! If you don't like one, go to the other! Course transfers are available with Credit averages so it's not the end of the world!

After Year 12, I had always wanted to get into Usyd but ended up going to UTS instead... and I do not regret a thing!

Reading a lot of posts from Year 12 students on this forum about UTS vs USYD vs UNSW makes me realise how 'naive' (I guess that is the word) ppl are at this age. Now don't get me wrong here - I'm not out to offend ppl or anything but I'd just like to offer my two cents here...

It's not the end of the world if you don't get into your course or the uni you wanted to. I believe the first year of my uni degree was a complete waste of time anyways... I didn't learn anything that would have made me a great scientist/lawyer/teacher etc... I just learnt how to learn - which is what I believe uni is all about at that time... You learn how to be dependent, how to cope with the amount of work you have to do and how to manage your time a bit better (You'd be amazed at how much you learn at this stage in your life). It wasn't until the end of second year that I kinda got the hang of things. AND it wasn't until this year (third year) that I realised what I wanted to do with my life! I mean, after almost 1 degree, I have completely changed my mind! So guys - don't fret too much!!! You are still YOUNG! Enjoy the first year of uni - attend the parties, meet ppl and make connections... cause you don't know where you'll end up. You might end up choosing a totally different career path or become interested in things you didn't realise you were interested in!

Also, my Behavioural Science lecturer once told us that the average human being changes his/her career path at least 7 times... With me so far, it's probably my 4-5th atm

SO LIVE!!! Enjoy uni and don't regret the decisions you make. You're still learning and always will be.

I hope I offered some advice there

 

[Jerry Springer]

I just read over what I wrote and realised how much of a wanker I sounded like.
How do I even know if law's for me? Can i ask anyone.............why are you doing law? HONESTLY

 

[Jesse]

That was exactly my point! You don't know if anything is right for you until you try it!!!

I wasn't trying to scare you guys there... I was just trying to make you guys understand that it's not everything.

And if you think you DO know what you want to be when you grow up - then consider yourself very lucky !!!

 

[!meeee!]

with the whole comment about being naive in regards to which is the best of usyd/unsw/uts... there is another element. Those students at any of the above mentioned unis aren't exactly in a position to say that one is better or as good as the others. If you're happy at your respective uni that's because you're enjoying uni, not because your uni in particular is a good one. Unless you've been to another uni how can you compare or know what you're missing out on?

 

[Bambul]

Those last two posts are very true. Except for the bit about which uni is best, clearly it's UNSW!
j/k

I rekon that whatever uni you go to, you will end up growing to like, so I would agree with !meeee!

And I guess I was lucky enough to find something I was good at and something I liked. So for me my degree is more pleasurable than a chore.

While I'm on the subject, I remember an anacdote that a finance lecturer once told us in an O-Week lecture. He said that a lot of people did finance because they heard that it payed well when they got out of uni. So they laboured through for three years doing something they didn't enjoy, thikning that when they got out after 3 years it would be all worth it. But it didn't get any better after they got into the workforce, they were now in a job they did not enjoy.

He said you should do something you like, because if you do you will do it well. You will find it much easier to gain experience, be more likely to work more hours because it's something you enjoy and morelikely to get promoted/get a pay rise. In the end, the latter will probably end up with you earning more money than the former.

 

[Juliette]

WHY LAW? Jerry - you asked why we want to do law. Hard question, easy answer (I guess i am one of the lucky ones jesse). There are some people in our society who, for various reasons cannot protect their rights. Be it that they are vulnerable, disadvantaged, poorly educated, have limited financial resources, or are simply too young to know their rights. So why then do I wanna do some swishy law degree, with a bunch of people who are only in it for the money?.... Well I dont think that many are!!

I want to work in policy development in the area of child protection, because I feel a social responsibility for those who cannot defend themselves. I will probably never own a BMW or a house on the north shore, but how can any of that replace job satisfaction, the knowledge that you were able to play a role in making someone elses life better!

INTROSPECTION:You're right - we all need to ask ourselves ' why is law for me?' or rather ' why am i willing to hive my life, with all this amazing potential, to this cause?' . If your answer has any of these words: justice, truth, fairness, protect, defend, peace (add in your own) you're in it for the right reason. However, if you hear yourself say: money, power, prestiege, image (again add 'em in) you gotta reassess your motivations.

We are, what, 17? 18? 19? It is nearly impossible to know ourselves, let alone where we wanna be neaxt year, or in 10 years so what Jesse has said is so important, there are always flexible pathways.

OTHER VIEWS: Once you know your motivations its a good idea to get alternate perspectives on law as a profession. the UTS website recommends pre-enrolment reading of a book called 'A Career In Law' edited by JF Corkery - I am slogging my way thru it atm and its not as bad as I had thought it may be.

Also talk it out with someone be it a parent, careers advisor, a friend, gees even a stranger like me if you're stuck (parents are surprisingly helpful with the big decisions tho)

Make this life, and your career, something you love, that you wake up excited about, that you find purpose in, not something youo tolerate for the dosh. Take care

 

[sif not 99]

plz get off your soapbox juliette

 

[Juliette]

Thanks,Sif,for illustrating my point - one of the great qualities of an egalitarian society is being able to express our minds, like I have. So please let us in on your story: where would you like to head for a career and why?

 

[Jerry Springer]

Originally posted by Juliette
Thanks,Sif,for illustrating my point - one of the great qualities of an egalitarian society is being able to express our minds, like I have. So please let us in on your story: where would you like to head for a career and why?

Ha ha, good retaliation Juliette! You'll make a fabulous barrister