The official IR reform thread! (13 Viewers)

[Generator]

No matter the way in which the current federal government divides and governs and that it is acting in a contemptible manner by disregarding democratic and parliamentary norms, the fact remains that the term 'Nazi' is far too loaded to be applied constructively in this instance, and to do so merely gives those who support the government grounds upon which to dismiss such points of dissent.

 

[leetom]

Now I'm not saying there would be a genocide here but there are some pretty strong links to say the shit people were saying in about 1932 - 33 in Germany ... I just think it's worth thinking about because it ain't that far fetched how easily it happened twice in the 1990's.

What exactly, are you saying happened back in the 30s and twice in the 90s? Workplace reform or the conversion of a democracy into a one-party state?

 

[erawamai]

No matter the way in which the current federal government divides and governs and that it is acting in a contemptible manner by disregarding democratic and parliamentary norms, the fact remains that the term 'Nazi' is far too loaded to be applied constructively in this instance, and to do so merely gives those who support the government grounds upon which to dismiss such points of dissent.

It's not nazi level of othering. It's just othering lite.

 

[dannyr]

Yeah I'm not saying anything like a genocide is on the cards but such hate of certain groups is questionable... whats the difference between nazi othering and othering lite? I mean it wasn't even Nazi Germany until 1933 then it was just a country with some economic problems... they were othering lite at one point were they not Generator? So is blaming a small percentage of the population for everything okay to a certain degree?

 

[Generator]

Is it ok to suggest that the current Government is akin to one that went on to committ genocide, dannyr?

At no stage did I disagree with the fact (yes, I consider it to be fact) that the government is othering in a populist manner.

 

[dannyr]

I dont know if it's ok to suggest it but I don't know where our society, led by the gov't, is going. And when you consider the fact that they are leading the society to hate particular groups can you diffinitively say that it isn't fair to say spiraling radicalism of their policies isn't on the cards? I don't think anyone believed that Hitler was planning genocide in the early 30's and if they had they most likely wouldn't have supported or trusted him. Is our societies othering so far different?

 

[Generator]

Ah yes, it is, because unlike the Germany of the 1930s, radical policies of racial supremacy and insularity aren't on the cards in any sense at all. Really, give up on this notion, because quite frankly it's pathetic. Yes, the Howard Liberal/Coalition Governments have long othered to a certain extent in order to further their notion of a better Australia in economic terms, but the fact remains that the underlying framework of liberty and tolerance remains (that of a fair-go is being challenged, it seems), and it is unlikely to be disregarded in a manner akin to that evidenced back in the 1930s.

Edit: Don't dehumanise the current federal government, because it achieves nothing.

 

[dannyr]

I don't think it will either but you can't say it certainly won't, liberty and tolerance do remain but my point is that it isn't VERY different. I just think that the vast majority of Australians don't care enough and perhaps such comparisons should be at least considered before shitting on the minorities in our society.

This was all off topic anyway, the IR is the real debate and I posted to that first before i saw erawamai's response to frog12986's post and agreed, and embelished hehe

Oh and why not dehumanise the federal government? They dehumanise themselves by giving less value to the lives of particular groups... And it is just my point of view and probably does achieve little but then so does every argument on here along with mine.

Daniel.

ps. dont call my argument pathetic, I never insulted your argument.

 

[Generator]

No, you didn't, but I really could not care because I consider the apparent suggestion that a Nazi-like Australia may be around the corner to be pathetic and of no use within a constructive political debate. As I said, it only serves to demean your argument as it gives those who support the government a reason upon which they may justify the dismissal of what would otherwise be a valid critique.

 

[frog12986]

I bet that gets a cheer at the local liberal meeting. Stop those bludgers getting welfare! While their grandparents collect the pension and their reletives collect baby bonus (talk about upper class and middle class welfare).

Try and move beyond the chiche. Hybolic language actually doesn't help those who actually need welfare.

Interestingly some people do require welfare and that it is in the interests of society and hence your interest that these people are given welfare (and perhaps even their dignity). I can just see you try to get war injured to work or disabled people to work! OH I forgot...thats whats they are already trying to do! I mean if you have no use of your upper body but you can move your fingers this BLUDGER should stop bludging and sit in front of a computer and do data entry for 15 bucks and hour. Thats of course if anyone wants to employ him.

I'm sure you would also know that there have been many many many Senate inquires into welfare dependancy and rorting. It is very hard to rort the state these days. It is ny impossible stop rorting but it isnt easy to get welfare. Have you ever tried to fill out a youth allowance form? They don't make it easy.

But of course those multimilliondollars ads are cost effective. You know the ones that tell you that rorting is a crime (as it should be). Those adds are targeted at you the self proclaimed hardworking non bludger who does good for the community. Those adds are targeted at you because they make you fell better. Market research and focus groups say so. Sure these adds cost a shitload and eat into the federal budget thus counterweighing any savings from catching out welfare cheats and hence allowing income tax cuts... BUT DAMN that are popular...and thats what is important. Not good government but getting people to hate anyone thats takes welfare because, if you give people someone to crap on, it makes them feel better.

My point was based around 'legitimacy' and 'substantiated claims'....

Not those on or receiving:
- Old Age Pension
- Disability Pension
- Youth Allowance
- Forms of the Baby Bonus and the like...

I'm referring to those who make multiple claims perhaps through ID Fraud, do not make concerted efforts to re-enter the workplace, or continue to receive welfare whilst in cash paying jobs... In fact, up to 20% of dole recipients are in the latter category..

Aboriginal Leader Noel Pearson has also firmly advocated necessary reform particularly in his indigenous communities to remove the extensive and engrained dependency that has been in existent since the 1970's..he also speaks commonly about irresponsible usage of the welfare payments, which do not provide either children or other family dependents with necessary schooling and other provisions that are essential in instigating a movement away from that lifestyle...
"we want to intervene early and encourage parents to say, listen, there's a rule here in relation to the income you receive. The rule is, you've got to feed the kids and you've got to make sure they attend school....Because if we don't intervene at this stage when the parent is being a bit slack with the money and sneaking off to the gambling school or sneaking off to the pub"


Now, this shouldn't just be confined to the welfare system, but also extended to incorporate those from the 'other end' as many refer, who undertake similar rorting practices of the taxation system..Both reforms are highly necessary if we as an economy are going to be adequately able to cope with the burden of an ageing population..there is and always will be ideology surrounding every political propostiion, however the necessity of these reforms is something that cannot be ignored..

As Malcolm Turnbull said in reference to comments made by Peter Costello "it is inappropriate in a country with a labour shortage, facing the consequences of demographic change, to have people capable of work in the welfare system without those people having an obligation to [concertedly] seek work"

The issue is 'legitimacy of claim' and not the fact that people claim welfare in itself..

 

[erawamai]

I'm referring to those who make multiple claims perhaps through ID Fraud, do not make concerted efforts to re-enter the workplace, or continue to receive welfare whilst in cash paying jobs... In fact, up to 20% of dole recipients are in the latter category..

I think that would be pretty hard to do. Welfare cheating has been sigificantly tightened up.

Aboriginal Leader Noel Pearson has also firmly advocated necessary reform particularly in his indigenous communities to remove the extensive and engrained dependency that has been in existent since the 1970's..he also speaks commonly about irresponsible usage of the welfare payments, which do not provide either children or other family dependents with necessary schooling and other provisions that are essential in instigating a movement away from that lifestyle...
"we want to intervene early and encourage parents to say, listen, there's a rule here in relation to the income you receive. The rule is, you've got to feed the kids and you've got to make sure they attend school....Because if we don't intervene at this stage when the parent is being a bit slack with the money and sneaking off to the gambling school or sneaking off to the pub"

I tend to personally agree with Noel. Constant, despite well meaning, welfare for aboriginal communities has not helped. Certainly a level of welfare is required for aboriginal people as you can't compete in the market unless you get to a level at which you can compete. The only way you get that person to that level is by a level of welfare. The danger is exposing ATSI people to the market before they are ready.

The issue is 'legitimacy of claim' and not the fact that people claim welfare in itself..

I think you may overestimate the number of dodgy claims. We all know thats its popular political call to say that there is heaps of welfare rorting. But really I think it is much better than it was. As I said it is very hard to get youth allowance unless you are genuine. The other point is that you will probably never kill off rorting.

 

[frog12986]

I think you may overestimate the number of dodgy claims. We all know thats its popular political call to say that there is heaps of welfare rorting. But really I think it is much better than it was. As I said it is very hard to get youth allowance unless you are genuine. The other point is that you will probably never kill off rorting.

The point is not 'just' based around 'rorting' but also on unecessary dependency that in many cases could be otherwise avoided..

 

[erawamai]

The point is not 'just' based around 'rorting' but also on unecessary dependency that in many cases could be otherwise avoided..

...well what are your areas of unesscary dependency?

...also you shouldnt quote malcom. He's much too intellectual for the mainstreaming Liberal party.

 

[frog12986]

...well what are your areas of unesscary dependency?

...also you shouldnt quote malcom. He's much too intellectual for the mainstreaming Liberal party.

I'll quote it again..mind you, it was Malcolm Turnbull 'quoting' Peter Costello..

"it is inappropriate in a country with a labour shortage, facing the consequences of demographic change, to have people capable of work in the welfare system without those people having an obligation to [concertedly] seek work"

Unecessary dependency is the continued receipt of welfare payements for no substantiated reason. As alluded to in the quote of MR COSTELLO, a situation when the individual has all the capable qualities necessary to re-enter the workforce, however rejects such a movement..

Too intellectual? Arrogance personified..that comment typifies the fundamental deficiency with the left of Australian politics (the ALP inclusive).
The people of Australia could not care less whether Mr Rudd, Mr Beazely or Mr Smith have degrees in elocution, dancing or basketweaving. This 'elitist', supposed 'intelligentsia' that exists in the ALP has lost touch with the 'mainstream' and 'workers' of this nation.

The ideology that now pervades ALP policy is centred around the ambitons of the idealistic, leftist academia who are in touch with noone but themselves and the empirical research that is supposed to solve all the ills that exist in society.
As I've said before, its the vote of the 'mainstream' that wins elections, not the vote of the leftist, "intelligentsia" of Balmain or the inner city..

I believe "malcom' has an "L" before the "m".."Malco(l)m".. too intellectual for your breed I see..

 

[erawamai]

I'll quote it again..mind you, it was Malcolm Turnbull 'quoting' Peter Costello..

"it is inappropriate in a country with a labour shortage, facing the consequences of demographic change, to have people capable of work in the welfare system without those people having an obligation to [concertedly] seek work"

Unecessary dependency is the continued receipt of welfare payements for no substantiated reason. As alluded to in the quote of MR COSTELLO, a situation when the individual has all the capable qualities necessary to re-enter the workforce, however rejects such a movement..

yes...I got that...what areas? So far you have IDed ATSI people. What areas are you drawing the line at?

Too intellectual? Arrogance personified..that comments typifies the fundamental deficiency with the left of Australian politics (the ALP inclusive).
The people of Australia could not care less whether Mr Rudd, Mr Beazely or Mr Smith have degrees in elocution, dancing or basketweaving. This 'elitist', supposed 'intelligentsia' that exists in the ALP has lost touch with the 'mainstream' and 'workers' of this nation.

My point was that Malcolm turbull is often too 'intellectual' for mainstream Australia. Certainly the economic arguments of Costello and Turnbull are intellectual. Most probably too intellectual for mainstream Australia to understand.

Malcolm and Peter are both part of the intelligensia. In particular Malcolm.

Still I also found the insult as weird. Considering that academics are hardly elite when it comes to money. It's more of an insult for having the hide to have ideas that are different from mainstream popularism. Typical anti intellectualism.

 

[frog12986]

Still I also found the insult as weird. Considering that academics are hardly elite when it comes to money. It's more of an insult for having the hide to have ideas that are different from mainstream popularism. Typical anti intellectualism.

I'm quite sure the the majority of academics have ideas that differ to those rooted in mainstream Australia. Academics continually oppose 'political populism' and the implementation of ideas merely because they reside with the 'mainstream',and not based upon empirical evidence. If that isn't a representation of having the 'hide' to have ideas that differ from the mainstream I don't know what is. Certainly this disparity is evident in Labor's election loss last year.

You hit the nail on the head. "Academics are hardly elite when it comes to money. Indeed academics are not elite in a financial sense, but they certainly convey an elitist attitude in the ways in which they talk down to, and about, the ideas or perceptions of the 'average' Australian..

 

[erawamai]

You hit the nail on the head. "Academics are hardly elite when it comes to money. Indeed academics are not elite in a financial sense, but they certainly convey an elitist attitude in the ways in which they talk down to, and about, the ideas or perceptions of the 'average' Australian..

Australian people don't like to be told they are dumb. If there is a popular idea they don't like to be told that perhaps their is another way and that someone has thought about why the other way is good. I believe that academics and their elitist ideas are important. Certainly it would be a very poor world without academic ideas. The whole idea of the 'marekt place' of ideas would be very dead.

I would hope that there would someone out there to challenge beliefs so that 'truths' are contintually refined.

Wouldn't you agree?

Certainly one day it is possible that the elitist and theoretical ideas of the IPA, BCA and Costello will be malined as out of touch...Society flows from left to right. Academia flows from left to right. The malining of certain left and right ideas comes and goes.

 

[frog12986]

Australian people don't like to be told they are dumb. If there is a popular idea they don't like to be told that perhaps their is another way and that someone has thought about why the other way is good. I believe that academics and their elitist ideas are important. Certainly it would be a very poor world without academic ideas. The whole idea of the 'marekt place' of ideas would be very dead.

I would hope that there would someone out there to challenge beliefs so that 'truths' are contintually refined.

Wouldn't you agree?

Certainly one day it is possible that the elitist and theoretical ideas of the IPA, BCA and Costello will be malined as out of touch...

Certainly, debate and contrast of views are healthy for any society..

However, if we take academics from criminological fields for example. They each have these wonderfully constructed ideas on crime and criminal responses, yet society has still failed to witness any of these conceptions actually yieding some form of tangible result..The only notable success to this point has been youth conferencing and reintergrative shaming, which in many instances are exploited by offenders.

The 'point' I'm trying to convey however, is that there are academic factions, particularly in the world of social sciences, that believe they have the solutions to all society's ills and woes, yet in a practical sense they fail to succeed..

We've digressed enough, wouldn't you agree..

 

[erawamai]

The fact I'm trying to convey however, is that there are academic factions, particularly in the world of social sciences, that believe they have the solutions to all society's ills and woes, yet in a practical sense they fail to succeed..

in your humble opinion...

 

[Generator]

Insight - Protected by Law

An interesting programme (or so I thought). If you have the time, I suggest that you read through the transcript (or watch one of the repeats).