The official IR reform thread! (11 Viewers)

[Rafy]

Looks like its mainly Labor voters and constuction workers etc out there. Its always the minority that make the loudest noise.

Nothing for Howard to worry about

 

[walrusbear]

Looks like its mainly Labor voters and constuction workers etc out there. Its always the minority that make the loudest noise.

Nothing for Howard to worry about

yeah so long as the majority are happy then nothing is wrong

 

[Generator]

Looks like its mainly Labor voters and constuction workers etc out there. Its always the minority that make the loudest noise.

Nothing for Howard to worry about

To be expected from such an avowed Liberal.

Despite what some here may think, there's more to today than just the Unions taking a stand.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Looks like its mainly Labor voters and constuction workers etc out there. Its always the minority that make the loudest noise.

Nothing for Howard to worry about

It's actually a pity that this whole fuss has happened.
My dad runs a small maintenance company and he wanted to get his workers onto AWA's. The AWA recognised the way in which alot of their business is done, offering them large rates of pay for doing some of the less exciting work, and granting the employer the power to dock pay if they had not conformed to certain administrative changes (i.e. under a new stocktaking system we need all employee's to sign off). Unfortunately it is due to these new reforms, that this AWA will probably not be successful. Alot of his workers are worried about it, despite previously being quite happy with what they saw.

 

[Rafy]

Seriously, these reforms have been blown out of all proportion.....

I was just listening to some of the speeches from today and they are all rhetoric and obscure emotional dribble....
If i didnt have the background to those protests, it would probally think the world was going to end tommrrow or we were about to be invaded.

The reforms need to be brought back into perspective.


NTB: I would agree to you there to some extent. By its a manifestation of union scaremongering. There is nothing quintessentially wrong with AWAs for workers, and they do have many benefits to both employyees and employers. But the unions make them out to be one of the biggest evils of the planet. Quite unfortunate....In many ways the unions are making the situation worse for the workers they are meant to be representing.

 

[erawamai]

Seriously, these reforms have been blown out of all proportion.....

I was just listening to some of the speeches from today and they are all rhetoric and obscure emotional dribble....
If i didnt have the background to those protests, it would probally think the world was going to end tommrrow or we were about to be invaded.

The reforms need to be brought back into perspective.

I believe hyperbole is a part of politics. However you have to keep in mind that for the lowest cohort of workers, in particular unskilled workers, the workplace changes are more likely to be more bad than good for them. Certainly with the no disadvantage test being left off and the whole notion of bargaining with your employer individually....those with no skills cannot bargain because they have nothing to bargain with. Those people will loose out.

The whole basis of labour market reform is to ensure that those who have nothing to bargain with individually get, according to the market, what they deserve. It is an injustice, from a market POV, that unskilled individuals are unable to be exploited due to their lack of skills.

From the social justice perspective it is an injustice and just plain wrong to have levels of human dignity and comfort traded in the market.

 

[walrusbear]

Seriously, these reforms have been blown out of all proportion.....

I was just listening to some of the speeches from today and they are all rhetoric and obscure emotional dribble....
If i didnt have the background to those protests, it would probally think the world was going to end tommrrow or we were about to be invaded.

The reforms need to be brought back into perspective.

by which you mean they should be brought back to your perspective?? and left unopposed?

i'd argue that the support FOR the reforms is rhetoric and obscure 'economic' dribble...

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Personally I've always thought that these changes should not apply to farmers / miners / people who work for large industrial companies.

i'd argue that the support FOR the reforms is rhetoric and obscure 'economic' dribble...

You know that both sides are pouring out the crap at the moment, the ALP is doing it alot more because all of them are currently involved in the senate inquiry.

 

[Generator]

i'd argue that the support FOR the reforms is rhetoric and obscure 'economic' dribble...

Kevin Andrews on 702 (right now) is a case in point.

 

[walrusbear]

You know that both sides are pouring out the crap at the moment, the ALP is doing it alot more because all of them are currently involved in the senate inquiry.

i'm aware of that, i was highlighting for Rafy the weakness of his own position
he seems to believe that the Coalition are being quite rational whilst everyone else is in the wrong for disbelieving

 

[Rafy]

by which you mean they should be brought back to your perspective?? and left unopposed?

i'd argue that the support FOR the reforms is rhetoric and obscure 'economic' dribble...

No, i didnt say, or imply that at all. Opposition to any reform is certainly required, but in the case of the I.R reforms, that opposition has decended to emotional, irrational arguments, full of hyperbole and deception.
And no, im not saying that the government is not doing the same. The Unions and Labor are just doing it on a greater scale. (And quite unproportionaly to the real impacts of the reform.)

Kevin Andrews on 702 (right now) is a case in point.

Listen to Burrows and the rest of the ACTU mob.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Kevin Andrews on 702 (right now) is a case in point.

No, currently it's Stealers Wheel - Stuck in the Middle With You.

 

[frog12986]

If we make a generous assumption that say 400,000 people nationwide have protested, that equates to around 17% of the 2.3 million union members within the workforce population, and around 4% of the 9.2 million people in the Australian workforce...massive numbers..

Quite frankly these numbers indicate that it is the usual union stooges and ALP members making a loud noise and fuss over the reforms. If the population was as incensed by the reforms as Combet, Burrow and Beazely are leading us to believe there would be close to 50% of union members out there, plus many members of the general population who are genuinely concerned. This isn't a protest for the preservation the rights and standards of the Australian worker, but rather a protest for the preservation of the union within the Australian Labour market..

 

[Rafy]

he seems to believe that the Coalition are being quite rational whilst everyone else is in the wrong for disbelieving

Seems that you have misinterpreted my position.
Anyway, i havent really seen any irrational arguments from the government.

 

[Generator]

No, i didnt say, or imply that at all. Opposition to any reform is certainly required, but in the case of the I.R reforms, that opposition has decended to emotional, irrational arguments, full of hyperbole and deception.
And no, im not saying that the government is doing not doing the same. The Unions and Labor are just doing it on a greater scale. (And quite unproportionaly to the real impacts of the reform.)



Listen to Burrows and the rest of the ACTU mob.

Both sides are tending to be just as dismissive, irrational and emotional as the other. There's no point in trying to paint the government in a positive light relative to the Unions (and the opposition, of course) when it's rhetoric is just as fanciful. Personally, I believe that the government's position is more than deserving of our scorn, expecially given the way in which it has gagged parliamentary debate and limited what should have been an extensive inquiry into the reforms.

 

[Generator]

Seems that you have misinterpreted my position.
Anyway, i havent really seen any irrational arguments from the government.

That all who are against the reforms have been mislead by the unions (i.e., they cannot think for themselves)? Surely that alone is more than suggestive of an irrational argument from the government, from the Minister himself no less.

 

[walrusbear]

No, i didnt say, or imply that at all. Opposition to any reform is certainly required, but in the case of the I.R reforms, that opposition has decended to emotional, irrational arguments, full of hyperbole and deception.
And no, im not saying that the government is doing not doing the same. The Unions and Labor are just doing it on a greater scale. (And quite unproportionaly to the real impacts of the reform.)

how do you know what the real impacts of the reform are??

i don't think there's anything particularly deceptive in their expression of concern over the changes. i mean if there was anything deceptive in this whole issue it is the actions of the coalition in instituting the reforms. they've spent millions of tax payer dollars on an add campaign concealing the fact that a lot of workers rights are to be stripped under the new policy.

perhaps another reason you will find that opposition is so heated is that the coalition is a particularly arrogant government. look no further than the gagged debate on this one. people are pissed off, and just because you're an economic fanboy doesn't mean they are wrong in expressing their discontent.

 

[Rafy]

expecially given the way in which it has gagged parliamentary debate and limited what should have been an extensive inquiry into the reforms).

I guess Labor told you that one?
The TRUTH is that the reforms have had the scrutinty of one of the longest periods of debates in Australian history. Even less parliamentary debate was allocated for key, and contriveral reforms of previous governments.

 

[walrusbear]

Seems that you have misinterpreted my position.
Anyway, i havent really seen any irrational arguments from the government.

i don't think i've misinterpreted your stance

that said, i think the operative phrase would be 'socially irresponsible' when it comes to government arguments, perhaps more than 'irrational'

 

[Not-That-Bright]

they've spent millions of tax payer dollars on an add campaign concealing the fact that a lot of workers rights are to be stripped under the new policy.

And Labor spent thousands on an ad that directly attacked the government.

perhaps another reason you will find that opposition is so heated is that the coalition is a particularly arrogant government. look no further than the gagged debate on this one.

Well they're quite upset, because unlike the `96 reforms where they were able to make quite a few changes to the bill this year it is just a pure liberal extensive reform.
I don't feel too comfortable with this at all.



As for the gagged debate, I feel it was a Labor tactic.