The Problem of Pamela Bradley (2 Viewers)

[silvermoon]

Just wondering, but how many sources/quotes should we have? I'm getting extremely mind-boggled by the amount of sources some people have...

intersting question - as far as im aware theres no set limit for how many to have or not to have. u dont want too many, or it looks like u cant think for urself. on the other hand, if ur just name-dropping then thats doesnt look to good either. i guess it kinda depends to on what society ur doing - in terms of how much written/archaeological etc evidence their is. a few sources, even paraphrased, will show that u have done wider reading.

 

[tina_goes_doo]

enough of this play nicely crap
*brandishes sword*
on guard! i challenge u tina 2 a duel!
*slaps tina_goes_doo in face with glove*
have at you!

A duel hey? Pistols? At 10 paces?

Oh and on the sources, for the ancient history trial i did today there is now a renowned historian called Feathersby. Great guy. Great name. Great historiography that just happens to fit in with my argument! How about that?

 

[SimpaticO]

I think the case is just like it has been said. There is no limit to how many sources you should or shouldn't refer too. But I would advise (as my teachers and study lecturers also do) not to "make refernce" by including lengthy quotes that you memorise.

The best way to utilise sources in essays is to know the key points that a particular historian makes and details about their theories on the issues you are talking about in the essay. That way, you can make points in the essay and back them up by saying something like "and this is evidenced by Wiedeman who considers that blah blah blah...................".

Also, you can know key points made by ancient sources and the direct reference to this. Here also you can make direct reference without physically quoting the source. For example you can say "Augustus knew the political potential of his building programme and often boasted of the temples that he built as a result of the program (RG, 29)".

In this way, the markers have seen that you know your sources and historians and have made reference to them. If you just memorise the quotes it seems more like you don't know enough of the content to fill your essay. Furthermore, if your make references to your sources in the way that I've just demonstrated, it allows you room to make more observations and theorise more thus giving the markers the impression of your higher order thinking skills and your ability to INTERPRET the sources rather than simply REGURGITATE them by throwing an abundance of lengthy quotes into your essay. If you do that you really diminish the intellectual validity of your essay.

I hope that helps. It's pretty much what I've been taught from a number of teachers and lecturers who mark the HSC.

 

[yulia]

lol who's Pamela Bradley? I don't think I've ever seen any of the OTEN/distance ed books source her, and there's a lot of sources in these booklets...lol so what's that saying?? These are put together by the NSW Department of Education and Training..

 

[snakeoils]

try and avoid using Bradley guys... it never looks very good... i know its tempting to fall back on her, but try not to! one of my big achievements of last year was doing my entire hsc ancient history exam without writing the dreaded B word!

 

[Caratacus]

Examiners Report

Candidates who quoted Pamela Bradley
On the whole did badly,
While those who knew their Wiedeman to the letter
Did somewhat better;
And seldom did those students waste their time
Who cited Ronald Syme.
If you're feeling brave, mention (if you dare-O)
Guglielmo Ferrero.
Often used, though sometimes quite erroneous,
Was naughty old Suetonius,
And many students took to quoting back at us
Bitter, angry Tacitus.
We looked out for, but didn't often see-O,
Some reference to that Greek chap, Cassius Dio.
The one thing you must always try to do is
Refer to the mysterious A P Lewis!
But when a student quoted from Paul Zanker,
We knew for sure he was a bloody very knowledgeable student indeed!

 

[I\'m Curly]

Pamela Bradley Does Exist

Hi,

I haven't read all the posts on Pam, but she does exist and you really shouldn't quote her. You should just use her quotations. We should be thankful, coz she's done all the hard work in analysing sources for us!

Although, she marks my class's assessments and was wondering herself why we didn't quote her... :S

I hope this helps.... I just felt like posting something.

Don't quote Pam - she is NOT a source/historian, she wrote our textbooks and is an experienced teacher/marker. Also, never quote Henessey et al or Cary - they are both textbooks!

No Cary, no Henessey and NO PAM in the HSC. And get over Scullard if you can.

 

[silvermoon]

most of the markers say they have no problem with ppl quoting scullard.

 

[I\'m Curly]

Yeah I know... it was just a joke. It's just that he's always quoted by everyone...

 

[silvermoon]

hehe, i always forget 2 quote him - never forget good ol AP Lewis and, of course, 'the great gae callender who is the best and most wonderful egyptologist and expert on everything that the world has ever seen' (all of which must be included as her title when referring to the revered one)

 

[scruffy012]

if u want my personal belief, you can quote anybody as long as they make a objective (even subjective) point about a topic, if you cant quote certain ppl, why then her book even used in schools, and even the HSC. who cares if she doent have a prestigious certificate saying that she studied uni at harvard (or englands equilivant), shes like many of us who dont believe, (but are unfortuantely wrong) that if you put the hard yards into a course, it doesnt matter where your background comes from.

 

[silvermoon]

if u want my personal belief, you can quote anybody as long as they make a objective (even subjective) point about a topic, if you cant quote certain ppl, why then her book even used in schools, and even the HSC. who cares if she doent have a prestigious certificate saying that she studied uni at harvard (or englands equilivant), shes like many of us who dont believe, (but are unfortuantely wrong) that if you put the hard yards into a course, it doesnt matter where your background comes from.

its not so much her background thats the problem - in terms of which university she graduated from, but her lack of in the field experience. for example, as much as i hate gae callender, she is considered a more knowledgable historian than bradley because she spends large amounts of time on archaeological digs in egypt every year then updates her written work to include the latest findings from the egypt teams. in comparison, bradley merely regurgitates the facts which form only the most basic part of the books of other historians, does not go into detail on any one topic, and doesnt make any insights herself - rather, she merely takes examples from various ancient historians to show different issues, therefore covering no new ground herself. it is widely accepted that bradleys texts are useful for gaining basic background information on a topic and as a guide to relevant primary sources which can be then researched further.
so, it really has nothing to do with whether she did or didnt study historu at cambridge

 

[Comrade nathan]

I haven't read most of this thread but ill give you a tip from my AH teacher. If you want to quote Bradley try to find if she is quoting someone else so then you can say for example " thucydides says that blah blah blah". So its not a excact quote because its what Bradley said.

 

[tina_goes_doo]

But then wouldn't it be better just using Thucydides as you're source?

 

[launcher169]

Yeah it would be, but the thing is that you are using the collection that Bradley provided
So it looks like that you have looked at other sources and gone through them
but you actually havent - just using your text book to your full advantage

 

[silvermoon]

i think that thats what tina meant...ie. looking up what source bradley used in the appendix and then just putting 'Thucydides says' rather than 'Bradley says' or 'Bradley uses Thucydides to...' etc.

 

[olay]

man, i jumped on the bradley bandwagon way late. anyway, my teacher says a definitely big NAY to quoting bradley.. and i've double checked, after someone told me bradley was quoteable.

anyway, THIS freaked me out...

You shouldn't really quote at all in Ancient essays. The questions ask you to "make reference" to other sources and this is what you should really do. In other words, discuss the theories of particular historians on the issues you are covering within the essay. You waste too much energy memorizing quotes and your essays often end up more quote than your own interpretation and thought which is a big no no.

Even our teachers and co - ordinators have told us this. If you rely on massive amounts of quotes, the markers get the impression that you haven't got enough of your own knowledge on the subject to make your essay. Our teacher kills us if we use quotes in written essays, they are for written assessment tasks that you hand in, not for exam essays like the HSC and trial.

... i use quotes a whole bloody lot in my essays b/c technically i'm not qualified to have an opinion, and must therefore shape my argument using scholarly opinion. actually, now that i think of it quoting must be good/just fine, considering the exemplar responses quote and paraphrase frequently. right guys?!?! :S *shuffles around nervously*

 

[shelley]

haha well do what the average person does and steal bradleys ideas and pass em off as your own (trust me most of her conclusions arent to hard to come up with by yourself) but having knowledge of things is good like u dont need to say in say a question about leisure scullard says they had 4 theatres, a bath ecte ct , just list what facilities they hadm, its common knowledge u dont need to say where u got it from, quotes are good and u use them mainly to discuss INTERPRTATIONS but if u wanna quote alot show your own knowledge by crital analysing them like sos and so based on teh evidence relies haevily in this coin which is amibigious in its meaning so his conclusions on imperial women role is overstated this writer feels that the conclusion of so and so who says "qoute" id more reliable because ect ect

thus u show u know things about teh topic, u did reading and know historians, and u have the ability to think crictically BIG BIG pionts come from this!

 

[gemita]

ok, so everyone's basically come to this conclusion already, but I called the HSC advice line and 2 ppl both said DON'T QUOTE BRADLEY! They also said to look at her footnotes and read the sources she cites, but I'm taking it one step backwards and just quoting Thucydides/Manetho/Gardiner etc from the quotes Bradley has....yay for bludgy easy-options.

 

[classics_chic]

... i use quotes a whole bloody lot in my essays b/c technically i'm not qualified to have an opinion, and must therefore shape my argument using scholarly opinion. actually, now that i think of it quoting must be good/just fine, considering the exemplar responses quote and paraphrase frequently. right guys?!?! :S *shuffles around nervously*

Bzzt. Wrong.

You can quote in essays (but not Bradley), although you don't have to. That's the thing: you can say "Scullard says that Caligula was a nut job" (hopefully more formally than that), rather than what Schullard exactly said.

Also, the whole point of the ancient history course is to form your own opinion. You're all scholars in the making, and no one can tell you otherwise. Your opinion is the most important of all, because to get the best marks, you need historiography, and that means evaluating the sources using... your own opinion! You can have an opinion, and you should express it, as long as you can justify it with the evidence given (or the lack of evidence in some cases).

Good luck!