The Religious Vote (1 Viewer)

[azzie]

So watching ABC news tonight, I saw a sickening display of suck-ups - also known as pollies, smarming and charming some religious types.

Because Beazley declared himself a christian, now (apparently) some Christian board says that he can expect a better result in the next election. Personally I don't think it takes away from the fact that he's a piece of shit politician and I wouldn't trust him in running this country (personal opinion, though I don't like Howard either).

The guy who is one of the key people in implementing the IR reforms said that "God's work is being done"...eh?

Now I'm a Christian, so I have no issues with the fact that any of these people might PRIVATELY have any kind of religious conviction, Christian or otherwise. But the idea of canvasing support due to your religion is 500 steps too far.

Should they be doing this? Are you sick of it too? And does your religion change the way you vote?

 

[*yooneek*]

wow, i didnt know u were a christian az!
hmmm well, because im a christian, when i do vote, that will have the biggest impact on what i vote for... im not too versed on politics and what not, but i'll be voting for the parties that support the values i hold strong to...

 

[erawamai]

Personally I don't think it takes away from the fact that he's a piece of shit politician and I wouldn't trust him in running this country (personal oppinion, though I don't like Howard either).

Such a mature and well thought out assessment. Kim has to say he believes in god. Last election showed the influence the christian vote has. In particular at Hillsong. John Howard opened the Hillsong centre and Costello said his life had been changed by one of the Hillsong Tapes that he listened to for 24 hours. Latham refused to go to hillsong. The Liberals won the seat around Hillsong. The new MP also happened to be a Hillsong member.

and the guy who is one of the key people in implementing the IR reforms said that "God's work is being done".... ehh??

The guy who said that is one of the religious folk are unfamilar with economic reform reform and neoliberal economic policy. Kevin Andrews, the minister for Industrial relations, and Peter Costello have on a number of occasions told the church to butt out. Which is kind of odd because the Liberal party will accept Church support when it is positive.

Now I'm a Christian, so I have no issues with the fact that any of these people might PRIVATELY have any kind of religious convition, Christian or otherwise. But the idea of canvasing support due to your religion is 500 steps too far.

I think you may have been living under a rock for many a year...at least politically. The religious vote now plays a massive role. Socially regressives policies, for example the abortion debate, are now back on the agenda due to the religious lobby. Along with government policy that reflects a more old fashioned view of the role of women in society.

and does your religion change the way you vote?

Political party polling shows that christians tend to vote Liberal due to their conservative social policy.

 

[Rafy]

and the guy who is one of the key people in implementing the IR reforms said that "God's work is being done".... ehh??

Yeh that was the future head of the fair pay commission.

I did see this report, and one of those interviewed saying that beazley had a better chance at winning governemnt beacuse he said he believed in god...(As if it would)

Religious conviction will definately not change my vote, in fact it may make me less inclined to vote for those who use religion for their political gain. I favour the strict seperation of church from politics and government.

 

[SashatheMan]

whats he gonna do next , follow the steps of george bush and say god told him to win the election

 

[azzie]

Such a mature and well thought out assessment. Kim has to say he believes in god. Last election showed the influence the christian vote has. In particular at Hillsong. John Howard opened the Hillsong centre and Costello said his life had been changed by one of the Hillsong Tapes that he listened to for 24 hours. Latham refused to go to hillsong. The Liberals won the seat around Hillsong. The new MP also happened to be a Hillsong member.

Well I don't think I was seeking to go into any enormous depth there mate, as you can see by the whole post.

back to the point- it amazes me that people will vote for others based on which religion they belong to. isn't that a superficial judgement when religion varies so much from person to person, and their talk might not match their walk?
Policies should be more important than religion.

edit: deus/rafy- i totally agree

 

[nwatts]

I favour the strict seperation of church from politics and government.

Me too.

One politician's religion will not affect how I vote (when i'm 18, of course), it will be the policies of the party. If it so happens that these policies are influenced by the 'party's' religion (say in the case of the great Rev Fred Nile and has terrible cult, or the Family First party), I'll assess them accordingly.

But I see little point in making a case around one politician's conversion. If a member of the Democrats came along and claimed they were Christian there is little chance the Democrats' policies would change (spec. regarding homosexuality), hence little affect on the party.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I favour the strict seperation of church from politics and government.

They're intertwined... people's social values often come from religious values, and for alot of people these values determine their votes.

 

[Calculon]

That doesn't mean you can't oppose this fact. I also agree that religious beliefs should not determine elections and that a government should not enforce their religious convictions onto others.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

A personal perspective on Separation of Church and State

I believe that you only have to look at the case studies of America and Great Britain to see that "Separation of Church and State" does in no way make religious groups less powerful. In America you have strict separation of Church and State, in Great Britain you have a recognised state church.

It is my opinion that separation of Church and State leads to conflicts and attacks on religions, which in turn empowers people to come out and 'defend' their religion, where as where the Church is not stamped out entirely, you find there is alot of religious apathy.

For an example of this I would point to muslim people after september 11th, they have been attacked by the media and the public for their beliefs - and in my opinion this has just made their beliefs stronger, they have something to fight for and defend, whereas I believe before september 11th most muslims in Australia were probably fairly religiously apathetic people.

Just a bit of food for thought

edit: I have no real problem with religion affecting people's votes, like if it is just their social views, it sucks if it goes against my beliefs but yeah that's democracy...
I don't see religious groups voting together on social issues any different to other 'special interest' groups voting.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Personally I don't think it takes away from the fact that he's a piece of shit politician and I wouldn't trust him in running this country [...]

Why?

Care to justify your view?

Now I'm a Christian, so I have no issues with the fact that any of these people might PRIVATELY have any kind of religious conviction, Christian or otherwise. But the idea of canvasing support due to your religion is 500 steps too far.

Firstly, this is politics. You do what you can to win. Howard & Costello have attended Hillsong/Church gatherings. If it'll help Beazley get over the line to win, and the other side plays by these rules, he'd be stupid not to reap all the advantages he can from these types of things. That is the way politics works. You either draw your gun or stand by and get shot.

If I recall, there was a small fuss when Latham expressed a non-commitment to religion. Who knows how many votes that cost him? Beazley is trying to remove any advantages the Liberals have in that regard. Is it wrong for him to do so? (Might I also lightly suggest that if people are going to vote based primarily on the religious position of the candidate then they deserve to be lead by the nose.)

Secondly, this relates to what Kevin Rudd was saying quite some time ago -- the Liberal Party thinks it has and appears to have a "dominance on morals" because of a Christian influence. But there's no reason why Labor can't have that same religious moral base. In fact the Labor Party originally had a very strong Irish-Catholic influence. In fact, I would further point out that the Liberal Party does not actually follow Christian morals very well. (Labor has been in accord with the ethics of Christianity to a much greater degree, in my opinion.)

Should they be doing this? Are you sick of it too? And does your religion change the way you vote?

The question "should they be doing this" is a moral one. You're asking whether it is ethical to take advantage of religious followings. On the face of it, no it doesn't seem relevant to how you'd perform as a politician. But politics is a different moral sphere to everyday life. The same rules cannot be applied.

As to whether the religious beliefs influence who I vote for - not really. They do shape my thoughts about the candidate - for example, I get very annoyed with Costello being a Christian. But overall no, I vote for the policies that the parties intend to put in place, and to a lesser extent the track-record of policies implemented (or proposed) thus far, as it were.

 

[thorrnydevil]

Even though I'm a Christian, I still believe in the seperation of church and state.

Politicians are meant to represent the majority of constituents-whether they be christian, jew or muslim. Our christian beliefs are already doctrinated throughout the legal system as it is, so why is there any need to go further?

Although we have a majority of Christians in our country, the minority religions still have the right to be heard, so all possible sides should be taken into account with our laws.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Politicians are meant to represent the majority of constituents-whether they be christian, jew or muslim. Our christian beliefs are already doctrinated throughout the legal system as it is, so why is there any need to go further?

Christians are a decent segment of australian society... so they're represented a decent amount.

Although we have a majority of Christians in our country, the minority religions still have the right to be heard, so all possible sides should be taken into account with our laws.

Heard equally?

 

[Generator]

For the record, Beazley isn't exactly trying to score any points because he hasn't exactly hidden the fact that he is a Christian, and if you'd like a measure he's meant to be as devout as John Howard.

 

[stainmepink]

Religion should NOT be intertwined with politics.

Religion is propagnda and only serves as a means of controlling people, as previously shown in societies of the past. (take the French before the Revolution). If political figures are using religion to gain votes, like Bush trying to up his popularity with the Intelligent Design issue.

Once you get the church and the state intertwined, values become law. It begins to hamper people, and restrict them from living as we do now. Also, if politics and the state become one, we start to see problems with the way females are viewed.

Relgion takes a more conservative view of women. Before you know it, all the women in the country who have had an abortion will be registered having performed a criminal offence. Less freedom for us.

keep politics and religion seperate!

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Care to address some of my points?

A personal perspective on Separation of Church and State

I believe that you only have to look at the case studies of America and Great Britain to see that "Separation of Church and State" does in no way make religious groups less powerful. In America you have strict separation of Church and State, in Great Britain you have a recognised state church.

It is my opinion that separation of Church and State leads to conflicts and attacks on religions, which in turn empowers people to come out and 'defend' their religion, where as where the Church is not stamped out entirely, you find there is alot of religious apathy.

For an example of this I would point to muslim people after september 11th, they have been attacked by the media and the public for their beliefs - and in my opinion this has just made their beliefs stronger, they have something to fight for and defend, whereas I believe before september 11th most muslims in Australia were probably fairly religiously apathetic people.

Just a bit of food for thought

edit: I have no real problem with religion affecting people's votes, like if it is just their social views, it sucks if it goes against my beliefs but yeah that's democracy...
I don't see religious groups voting together on social issues any different to other 'special interest' groups voting.

 

[stainmepink]

Care to address some of my points?

excuse me? are you sarcastic?

and by the way, the US does have religion entertwined in its politics. Look at Bush and how he claims "God told him to invade Iraq" and have a look at the "Intelligent Design" issue being raised by Bush, just to gain more support. The Hillsong thing has become so powerful its moved its way into politics in the US.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

excuse me? are you sarcastic?

Are you going to address my points?

the US does have religion entertwined in its politics. Look at Bush and how he claims "God told him to invade Iraq" and have a look at the "Intelligent Design" issue being raised by Bush, just to gain more support.

Can you please show me a quote of Bush saying god told him to invade iraq? And yes, issues of religious expression are debated by politicians.

 

[SashatheMan]

allegidly bush qotes that. i dont think there is a quote

 

[SashatheMan]

Shaath, now the Palestinian information minister, said: " President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God.

'God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan'.'

"And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq...' And I did.

"'And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.' And by God I'm gonna do it'," said Shaath.



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