Unis face tough changes: Nelson (Four Corners) (1 Viewer)

[leetom]

yet I like how we dont have to pay union fees. so he isnt a dick..

Collectivise, bitch. He's a dick.

 

[malkin86]

Brendan Nelson is supposed to be one of the brightest men in Parliament. Imagine if he's this bloody incompetent and ideologically motivated, how bad the other politicians are. Un-bloody-beleivable!!!

His cuts to higher educations won't help Australia prosper in the longer term.

No, I think he's a very clever man... Did you see how many questions he dodged? I don't envy him that he has to 'pick the winners' out of Aussie unis, though.

Here's a transcript of the whole show.

 

[loquasagacious]

Nelson os incredibly smart, have you seen him recall stats off the top of his head in response to unknown questions? eg on Insight.

Since when has ideology not gone hand in hand with intelligence? Marx anyone? Infact almost every leading ideologue from history you care to name is very intelligent.

 

[Enlightened_One]

Been intelligent doesn't automatically make you a good person. And there is more than mere brain capacity. Otherwise, if we allow for the rule of intelligence, then everything works with logic as a basis. Logic is neither compassionate nor fair. If this country operated on a logical basis then it'd be a very oppressive, but very productive, society.

People need more than intelligence to make them worth listening to.

 

[townie]

i propse we slash the defence budget so there's only enough money to sustain current capabilities (i.e. no better, no worse). and divert all the money back into education....god this government makes me glad i have tripple citizenship so i can fuck off somewhere else if i need 2

 

[Xayma]

Townie how do you propose that we acquire new military vehicles when the current ones are outdated?

Also if you look at the other thread uni's are in trouble all over the world.

 

[jpr333]

I was in the lecture they filmed part of the story in, WOOO I am famous, who wants an autograph.

 

[Monkey Butler]

when the current ones are outdated?

You mean as soon as we buy them?

 

[ohne]

I saw the Four Corners programme and it seemed quite negative which I don't think was entirely justified. Government funding for Universities has been declining for some time so now many Universities receive their funding from elsewhere. So what? There's nothing wrong with foreign students coming here and paying large fees to do a degree. I don't see how the consequences for Australia can be negative. I don't have anything against local students paying full fees also, it ensures that my University (UNSW) has more money which benefits all students, staff alumni etc. Universities with hardly any feepaying students and low hecs (like UWS) have less money to spend on resources and staff.

Yes, some Universities which don't adapt to the changes will be left behind (like UWS) but others (like UNSW and USyd) should not be harmed. If you look at most American universities, they still receive a much greater level of private funding though, we still have some way to go if we are to turn our best Universities into world class institutions. There is only so much public funding can do, Universities in places like continental Europe where there are generally no fees are hardly the most prestigious institutions in the world.

The number of HECS places at Australian universities is actually increasing, despite what some here are saying. The number of fee paying students is also growing, but this growth is not eating away at HECS places, they are additional places on top of HECS ones.

 

[Sarah]

I saw the Four Corners programme and it seemed quite negative which I don't think was entirely justified. Government funding for Universities has been declining for some time so now many Universities receive their funding from elsewhere. So what? There's nothing wrong with foreign students coming here and paying large fees to do a degree. I don't see how the consequences for Australia can be negative. I don't have anything against local students paying full fees also, it ensures that my University (UNSW) has more money which benefits all students, staff alumni etc. Universities with hardly any feepaying students and low hecs (like UWS) have less money to spend on resources and staff.

Ohne, marking standards are being lowered. Lower standards leads to a decline in the quality of students. Consequently this leads to an increased negative image from employers who employ graduates only to discover that graduates lack skills in certain areas e.g communication. Additionally, lower standards can also mean that student satisfaction in the course declines.

Plus, you mentioned that there's more money to spend on resources and staff. I disagree. There appears to be cutbacks in quite a few faculties e.g Science (maths), FCE (length of tutorials), FBE (last yr FBE wanted to cut Human Geography).

For example (this is a petty one but supports what i've said above), last yr when i was doing a stats course we use to be given the worksheets at the beginning of the workshop class. Towards the end, our lect/tutor told us that the they would no longer be giving out . There was not enough $ to spend on paper and so we were expected to print out the worksheets ourselves.

Also, more $ to spend on staff? Well, overall, it's become harder for graduates to pursue a career in academia. I've read journal articles about the difficulties it is to start off a career in academia and part of it attributed the cause to funding. Plus there's news articles out there which highlight changes to contracts and the uncertain career parths (if u asked me to find them, i cbb, i read them whilst doing an assignment on Australian universities).

Yes, some Universities which don't adapt to the changes will be left behind (like UWS) but others (like UNSW and USyd) should not be harmed. If you look at most American universities, they still receive a much greater level of private funding though, we still have some way to go if we are to turn our best Universities into world class institutions. There is only so much public funding can do, Universities in places like continental Europe where there are generally no fees are hardly the most prestigious institutions in the world.

Funding which goes towards....? If your're talking about research, the ability to recieve funding from ARC grants is strongly associated to whether this research is of applied and practical use.

You do realise that private sources of funding e.g Industry body, Political party funding, can lead to problems regarding exactly what findings are published? Findings can be influenced by the agenda/s of the source of funding. For example, one of my tutors was a consultant and was contracted to do a report for some company. The company didn't like the findings of his research, they fudged the end report and asked him to sign it. He refused to sign it though. Not exactly sure what happend to the report in the end but that's just an example.

I'm not saying that at all times problems will eventuate from private sources of funding, but what i am saying is that findings are more prone to be in line with the agenda of the funding source.

The number of HECS places at Australian universities is actually increasing, despite what some here are saying. The number of fee paying students is also growing, but this growth is not eating away at HECS places, they are additional places on top of HECS ones.

I don't know any figures off the top of my head. So i can't comment. What i can say is that there still appears to be workplace shortages in some critical areas. The most pominent which come to mind are nursing and teaching

 

[ohne]

I agree that there is evidence that mark standards are being lowered in some Universities to attract foreign students with poor English skills. And this does lead to a poor reputation for the Universities concerned. I have not seen any evidence for this at UNSW though.

In terms of funding I don't think UNSW or other "G8" universities are doing too badly to be honest. There seems to be quite a large amount of construction going on eg. new law building. You make a good point about FBE wanting to cut human geography last year, I am not entirely sure about the reasons for this although perhaps they wanted to get rid of their only HECS "band 1" courses. I think the government needs to have a look at the regulations for HECS bands, USyd cut nursing because of the low HECS fees it attracts, hence they lose money on it. Law is probably a huge cash cow because it the teaching is similar to social sciences/humanities yet they can charge the highest band.

I am not an expert on the research situation, although masters by research and PhD's are free, are they not? Please forgive me if i'm wrong. I think there are some problems with moving research towards the direction of purely making money. A lot of research can deliver good outcomes for the community while not necessarily being good for industry.

I agree that there are some problems with certain private funding, but I think there can also be problems with certain areas of public funding. We need a balance between the two. Not all research should be for improving industry.

 

[Xayma]

I am not an expert on the research situation, although masters by research and PhD's are free, are they not? Please forgive me if i'm wrong. I think there are some problems with moving research towards the direction of purely making money. A lot of research can deliver good outcomes for the community while not necessarily being good for industry.

Not in all cases. A fair few get Australian Postgraduate Awards which pay for it, although you have cases where companies will pay the cost for a PhD for someone (having them research a specific area etc).

 

[ohne]

Not in all cases. A fair few get Australian Postgraduate Awards which pay for it, although you have cases where companies will pay the cost for a PhD for someone (having them research a specific area etc).

Are you referring to local or international students? I've been looking at the websites of a few Universities and they all seem to charge no fees for postgraduate research degrees.

http://www.uq.edu.au/study/index.html?page=29084&pid=1118

 

[Sarah]

I agree that there is evidence that mark standards are being lowered in some Universities to attract foreign students with poor English skills. And this does lead to a poor reputation for the Universities concerned. I have not seen any evidence for this at UNSW though.

In terms of funding I don't think UNSW or other "G8" universities are doing too badly to be honest. There seems to be quite a large amount of construction going on eg. new law building. You make a good point about FBE wanting to cut human geography last year, I am not entirely sure about the reasons for this although perhaps they wanted to get rid of their only HECS "band 1" courses. I think the government needs to have a look at the regulations for HECS bands, USyd cut nursing because of the low HECS fees it attracts, hence they lose money on it. Law is probably a huge cash cow because it the teaching is similar to social sciences/humanities yet they can charge the highest band.

The case with Human Geography was interesting. There were various reasons given to support moving Human Geography out of FBE. In the end, it's now back with the Faculty of Science.

One of the reasons they did give was that there wasn't enough space in the Faculty to support Human Geography. By space, i wasn't sure if they meant phsyical space i.e offices which lecturers took up in the red centre or funding space i.e low enrolment numbers signifying the course wasn't financially viable.

And in terms of funding, well ppl associate changes in assessments e.g multiple choice exams as being indicative of lowering standards for international students. Whilst in part it probably is true, i know for certain that some changes in ways that students are assessed are related to funding and the lack of funds available to pay tutors to mark papers.

I am not an expert on the research situation, although masters by research and PhD's are free, are they not? Please forgive me if i'm wrong. I think there are some problems with moving research towards the direction of purely making money. A lot of research can deliver good outcomes for the community while not necessarily being good for industry.

I agree that there are some problems with certain private funding, but I think there can also be problems with certain areas of public funding. We need a balance between the two. Not all research should be for improving industry.

A lot of PHD students get scholarships as well. That allows them to do research in the area they're looking at specialsing in. Some PHD students also get scholarships (well funding) from professors in their faculty

 

[ohne]

The case with Human Geography was interesting. There were various reasons given to support moving Human Geography out of FBE. In the end, it's now back with the Faculty of Science.

One of the reasons they did give was that there wasn't enough space in the Faculty to support Human Geography. By space, i wasn't sure if they meant phsyical space i.e offices which lecturers took up in the red centre or funding space i.e low enrolment numbers signifying the course wasn't financially viable.

And in terms of funding, well ppl associate changes in assessments e.g multiple choice exams as being indicative of lowering standards for international students. Whilst in part it probably is true, i know for certain that some changes in ways that students are assessed are related to funding and the lack of funds available to pay tutors to mark papers.

I think before I started at UNSW there was a school of geography at UNSW, which contained the physical and human sides of geography. This is probably at better situation than at present where where it's split between FBE and BEES. I have noticed as well that there aren't very many people who do either form of geography. I don't think many universities have a complete geography department anymore, however, Monash is the only one I can think of.