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UoW Medical School. (2 Viewers)

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For shame! Trading reputation like that is all but forbidden, I should delete your posts. At LEAST try to be covert next time!

Anyway, Western Sydney is suffering just as much from the health care shortage as Wollongong, justifying the establishment of the medical school there. Also, UoW's reputation is not dissimilar to USyd's - based on age and past achievements (almost irrelevant to a newly established faculty). I think this new school would be the perfect closing blow for UWS to prove its worth (after all, they've got a lot more respect in the academic sphere than high schoolers give them credit for).
 

inasero

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Also, UoW's reputation is not dissimilar to USyd's
haha sif, despite what the good guides say, we all know that USyd has a better reputation...but then again that counts for nothing because the quality of academics located in each individual department is important
 

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inasero said:
haha sif, despite what the good guides say, we all know that USyd has a better reputation...but then again that counts for nothing because the quality of academics located in each individual department is important
Your're so lucky Lazarus got rid of the negative reputation system. :p
 

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it seems every man, uni and his dog are opening up med schools *sighe*... firstly la trobe's satellite medical campus in sydney and now this...

back in my day (i say this with emphasis), we either tried for UNSW, UNCLE, graduate or interstate... not like you lucky '06-'07kids with your extra 200+ HECS places now

geez, all of a sudden i feel really old :(
 

+Po1ntDeXt3r+

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inasero said:
haha sif, despite what the good guides say, we all know that USyd has a better reputation...but then again that counts for nothing because the quality of academics located in each individual department is important
cmon if its a old uni... it will sound better
i agree with willy here but then the good uni guide did always give adel med a good remark :p based on grads input for the last 3 yrs
 

inasero

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hear hear!!! we had it tough...we earned it fair and square but these days, you could say you study medicine and nobody would bat an eye
 

inasero

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man check out my crappy assignment. worth 10pc.....reminds me of advanced anglish

can somebody with an english major please give me suggestions?
 

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inasero said:
hear hear!!! we had it tough...we earned it fair and square but these days, you could say you study medicine and nobody would bat an eye
But that's because doctors aren't infallible like they used to be - people just don't listen anymore. If they don't like what their doctor says they find a new one.

And if they get sick they can always sue you. Go figure.
 

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inasero said:
hear hear!!! we had it tough...we earned it fair and square but these days, you could say you study medicine and nobody would bat an eye
But that dosen't mean the people who try out for these new schools will get it any better. Demand is ever increasing so an extra few hundered places in three schools wouldn't have much of an impact to the entry requirements IMO> :)
 

inasero

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You know, I refuted your argument about specialisations and whatnot in the other forum so just a disclaimer now that I don't have a personal grudge against you :D Because I'm about to refute what you say again. I'm not arguing for argument's sake but because I honestly feel that this year's students have it very easy...because it will become easier to gain entry.
Well you claim
But that dosen't mean the people who try out for these new schools will get it any better. Demand is ever increasing so an extra few hundered places in three schools wouldn't have much of an impact to the entry requirements IMO>
So lets look at it logically. Last year there were around 8300 applicants who sat the UMAT. Based on the 2003 booklet, there were available 930 places for medical undergrads in Aust/New Zealand (this figure includes MRBS,RBS students). This year, owing to establishment of several medical schools, there are 1129 places for undergraduatess, plus UTas hasn't announced how many peopel it will accept but so far as increasing acceptance trends go, it would be roughly 1200. This represents a 21.4% increase (not counting UTas). Now in all honesty, can you tell me that there's suddenly going to be a proportionate 21.4% increase in number of people wanting to do medicine, let alone doing the UMAT?

Therefore this year, your assertion that "It won't make much of a difference" doesn't hold water.

That said, you could be right in the long term if the government doesnt make more local medical places.....perhaps in a decade or so...

That shall be the end of my spiel for today.
 

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inasero said:
You know, I refuted your argument about specialisations and whatnot in the other forum so just a disclaimer now that I don't have a personal grudge against you :D Because I'm about to refute what you say again. I'm not arguing for argument's sake but because I honestly feel that this year's students have it very easy...because it will become easier to gain entry.
Well you claim

So lets look at it logically. Last year there were around 8300 applicants who sat the UMAT. Based on the 2003 booklet, there were available 930 places for medical undergrads in Aust/New Zealand (this figure includes MRBS,RBS students). This year, owing to establishment of several medical schools, there are 1129 places for undergraduatess, plus UTas hasn't announced how many peopel it will accept but so far as increasing acceptance trends go, it would be roughly 1200. This represents a 21.4% increase (not counting UTas). Now in all honesty, can you tell me that there's suddenly going to be a proportionate 21.4% increase in number of people wanting to do medicine, let alone doing the UMAT?

Therefore this year, your assertion that "It won't make much of a difference" doesn't hold water.

That said, you could be right in the long term if the government doesnt make more local medical places.....perhaps in a decade or so...

That shall be the end of my spiel for today.
Your assumptions are quite logical. Yet mine are extremely valid. :p

What the whole crux of this discussion is, IMO, that would the change, if any, to the entry requirements of the MBBS be so significant, that it would in turn become a detriment to those who clearly passed the cutoff in previous years? There are, and I remind you :p, other requirements of entry to an MBBS that need to be taken into account. I don't think that with the combinations of the UAI, UMAT and interview necessities which will still be applicable in these new medical schools be of any significant ease in comparison to previous years. I still believe that the newcomers into the medical arena will be comparable to scholars like yourself. If all the other requirements were eroded, leaving only the UAI as a measure of eligiblity, then you would undoubtly be in the position to correct me, fortunatley, this is not the case. :)

I'm at uni now, the tutor keeps on walking round and around. Far out. :p


*off to see the other thread inasero has been referring to* :p
 

inasero

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If all the other requirements were eroded, leaving only the UAI as a measure of eligiblity, then you would undoubtly be in the position to correct me, fortunatley, this is not the case.
What you say sounds true. I'm not saying that they are any less 'scholarly', to put it in your own words. However, you're suddenly bringing up the topic of UAI into the discussion which is like saying "young drivers shouldn't be restricted with a curfew because the net profit of last years banana growers superceded previous years'...". Well maybe not quite that dichotomous, but nonetheless irrelevant.

I can see what you are trying to argue and as I have said...I agree to some extent. But consider it this way: there are X places in Universty Z for LLB, suddenly there's a 20-25% increase in demand. Therefore, would the academic milieu be any different? No...because we take the cream of the crop. So in fact it would be harder to get in, thereby increasing academic potential.

The story with Medical courses is a little more challenging, because firstly, there is no defined UAI you should acheive nor is there a relatively fixed number of places from year to year.

I'm saying that despite the increase in demand for MBBS (hence theoretically more academically capable students accepted), the disproportionate increase in number of medical school places means that a greater proportion of students are accepted.

You have so far failed to rebut this pertinent point ergo your arguments are not "extremely vaild" (as you maintain). Please explain how a sudden increase in medical places could be offset by increasing student demand. THAT, in my opinion, is the crux of this argument.

So far as the UAI goes, it's hard to explain so please bear with me, my wording might not exactly be logical.

You seem to have a good understanding of the entrance criteria required of medical schools. As you know, most medical schools have UAI + UMAT requirement, with some taking semi-structured interview performance into account. But with all sections counted equally (except for UNCLE where you only need to satisfy the UAI cutoff), you can acheive lower marks in each and still enter. It is not as if people can maintain high UAIs and afford to stuff up their other sections (unless you are very very smart), as I am assuming you are getting mixed up about.

So therefore, despite other entry requirements, the mere fact that they are equally weighted means that the academic mean will be lower. Interview/UMAT scores, by the same reasoning, will also be generally lower, so now not-so-bright students without personal interaction skills (there are not-so-bright students with personal interaction skills in my univerity) can gain entry, meaning the value one places on the course and the profession in general is diminshed. But I hasten to add that this is in the short term only (refer to my first rebuttal).

Call it intellectual elitism if you will, but once (or if) you hit Anatomy 101, you will see why I bemoan the decreased academic mean. I'm not saying that all medical students should acheive 100 UAI before being accepted (I didn't), but that a certain threshold of academic capability is important (you may wish to consult AK Gumbi who is studying with me for confirmation, or any other medical student in this forum). Just like construction workers require phydscal strength and resilience.

Finally, I want to point out again that I do admire the thought you've put into this argument. I rebut to refine my communication skills and not because I have a grudge against you personally. You do raise some stimulating questions but should back up your arguments with solid evidence if I am to concede my case.

I hope you do understand what I mean now and sorry if I didn't make it clear before.
 

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inasero said:
The story with Medical courses is a little more challenging, because firstly, there is no defined UAI you should acheive nor is there a relatively fixed number of places from year to year.

I'm saying that despite the increase in demand for MBBS (hence theoretically more academically capable students accepted), the disproportionate increase in number of medical school places means that a greater proportion of students are accepted. You have so far failed to rebut this pertinent point ergo your arguments are not "extremely vaild" (as you maintain). Please explain how a sudden increase in medical places could be offset by increasing student demand. THAT, in my opinion, is the crux of this argument.

You seem to have a good understanding of the entrance criteria required of medical schools. As you know, most medical schools have UAI + UMAT requirement, with some taking semi-structured interview performance into account. But with all sections counted equally (except for UNCLE where you only need to satisfy the UAI cutoff), you can acheive lower marks in each and still enter. It is not as if people can maintain high UAIs and afford to stuff up their other sections (unless you are very very smart), as I am assuming you are getting mixed up about.

So therefore, despite other entry requirements, the mere fact that they are equally weighted means that the academic mean will be lower. Interview/UMAT scores, by the same reasoning, will also be generally lower, so now not-so-bright students without personal interaction skills (there are not-so-bright students with personal interaction skills in my univerity) can gain entry, meaning the value one places on the course and the profession in general is diminshed. But I hasten to add that this is in the short term only (refer to my first rebuttal).

Call it intellectual elitism if you will, but once (or if) you hit Anatomy 101, you will see why I bemoan the decreased academic mean. I'm not saying that all medical students should acheive 100 UAI before being accepted (I didn't), but that a certain threshold of academic capability is important (you may wish to consult AK Gumbi who is studying with me for confirmation, or any other medical student in this forum). Just like construction workers require phydscal strength and resilience.

Finally, I want to point out again that I do admire the thought you've put into this argument. I rebut to refine my communication skills and not because I have a grudge against you personally. You do raise some stimulating questions but should back up your arguments with solid evidence if I am to concede my case.

I hope you do understand what I mean now and sorry if I didn't make it clear before.

1) Yes, there is no defined UAI, but some schools like UNSW hold that a 95.00 UAI is the minimum requirement. I have no idea about Monash though. :)

2) The fact that the opening of three schools does not directly create an abundance of vacant positions. It has been under negotiation for some time that medical enrolments be reduced from 1200 to 1000 per annum. Please take a brief look at this particular article produced by the AAMS (Australian Acadamey of Medicine and Surgery):

http://www.aams.org.au/contents.php?subdir=../public/library/other/&filename=surplus_docs&view=print

AAMS said:
THE REDUCTION IN AUSTRALIAN MEDICAL SCHOOL ENROLMENTS

In May 1995 the Commonwealth announced it intended to begin negotiations with the medical schools to reduce the local intake of medical students from 1,200 per year to 1,000. Perhaps because this is one area where the Commonwealth has the power to take action independent of State resistance, these 'negotiations' have turned into directives. On 9 August all universities received a paper from DEET which informed them of the government's determination to proceed with the matter and offered them a way to make the cuts which would be budget neutral. The universities are invited to redirect their medical student load to other 'high priority purposes', as long as it does not lead to the production of doctors. The universities are advised that 'the Commonwealth anticipates that in most, if not all, cases, funds and student load freed up by reductions in medical school intakes from any university will remain solely with that university'. The location of the reductions is to depend on the medical workforce needs of particular states and the viability of smaller medical schools. Short of risking a cut in their budget allocations and the Commonwealth's enmity it appears the universities have little choice but to comply.

As the matter stands, the opportunities for some young Australians to become doctors are about to be sacrificed because the government has been unable to control the entry of OTDs into the medical work force.
3) It is plain to see that if the other selection criteria are of equal weighting as you have stated already. This proves my previous post about medical students still being of similar calibre to your own year. It would be a disaster if one could only answer UMAT questions effectively but not be able to communicate or articulate their every thoughts. I don't however, agree with your point about the general diminishing factor arising from the equal weighting of criteria. I believe that if demand outstrips supply to the extent that it does in the case of medicine, then a combination of UMAT, benchmark UAI and interview are quite necessary to recruit the ''çream of the crop''in the ''short term''.

4) I don't believe that ïntellectual elitism"should dictate the entry requirement of a course such as an MBBS although I do appreciate the extremely difficult content you and others on this board must go through. I do understand that being intelligent is a major contributing factor to the success of ones academic career, but that is not all that is required once you complete your seven or so years of university. The broader selection criteria which one must go through for the satisfaction of eligibility must be vmaintained at the current standard. I do however respect your point about intellectualism being important although I think being smart in the areas such as the ionterview is equally as important. :)

5) I hope this is enough solid evidence. :p
 

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theone123 said:
UWS new med school gona be the best :)
actualli thats fairly valid.. because med is pretti hands on and UWS has been pretti good at implementing practical courses...
UWS will only suceed if it gets the appropriate monies.. cos like then it will be newer than UoW lolz..

reputation is very low on the scales for medicine unless u want to do research too

btw @inasero.. that assignment of ures is total BS.. :D... but i got one on stolen generation effects on the health + socio-eco etc status of aborigines
 

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1) Yes, there is no defined UAI, but some schools like UNSW hold that a 95.00 UAI is the minimum requirement. I have no idea about Monash though.
yes 95 is low but acceptable nonetheless. Again, call it intellectual elitism if you will but that's the sad fact of medical school life. Below 90 and I'd serioulsy start to doubt the capacity of the student to succeed in the course.

The fact that the opening of three schools does not directly create an abundance of vacant positions. It has been under negotiation for some time that medical enrolments be reduced from 1200 to 1000 per annum.
yes and not only has it been negotiated, but it has been enforced. Now repealed as of the beginning of next year. explain to me how 20-25% is not an abundance....at least in the short term

I think being smart in the areas such as the ionterview is equally as important.
i never said it wasn't important...but thats not the issue at stake here because what im saying is that it will overall be easier to get into med school (yes, significantly, if i may be so bold as to say) because lower average marks in each criterion will be accepted.

5) I hope this is enough solid evidence.
no it isn't. please please PLEASE explain HOW the increase in demand for medical places is in proportion to the number of new places...I am getting frustrated trying to explain the same idea so in the meantime I'll leave it to the domain of you, the lawyer, to BS your way out of :D

alvin: yeh man tell me about it
 

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inasero said:
yes and not only has it been negotiated, but it has been enforced. Now repealed as of the beginning of next year. explain to me how 20-25% is not an abundance....at least in the short term

i never said it wasn't important...but thats not the issue at stake here because what im saying is that it will overall be easier to get into med school (yes, significantly, if i may be so bold as to say) because lower average marks in each criterion will be accepted.

no it isn't. please please PLEASE explain HOW the increase in demand for medical places is in proportion to the number of new places...

LoLz, I think I've done nothing more but piss you off. (which was never intended of course) :p

1) From the source I was lead to believe that the creation of a number of new medical schools was just a way the government could reallocate it's sources. That is, redirect the flow of graduate places to other, non suburban areas to relieve the doctor/nurse shortages in the long term (because we have too many in Sydney already and not enough in rural areas). It was not to my immediate knowledge that this policy would be repealed as of next year. Where did you gain this information from? Would it be too much of a hassle if you could direct me to the source? After all, you are the better, more informed doctor between the two of us. :p

2) Why would there be a general lowering of criterion? I still don't understand this point. Yes I'm slow. :p


inasero said:
I am getting frustrated trying to explain the same idea so in the meantime I'll leave it to the domain of you, the lawyer, to BS your way out of :D
I'm trying my best here. :uhhuh: :p :uhhuh:
 

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In addition, I looked at your really gay assingment. I think the criteria already given is quite adequet in assesing different forms of litreature. I think being able to intergrate the essay is entirely up to yourself. I understand what you are trying to achieve but is hard to explain. There is no step by step guide to intergrating essays although you could use the old HSC English style formula:

1) Pick the topic. eg. Authority and then explain it in reference to one text. Compare and contrast it to the other texts.

2) Repeat step one using something else. eg. Accuracy.

3) I don't think that there is a need to go through every piece of criterion, just the ones that are of significant contrast or comparability.

4) Wind up the essay by briefly going through your points above, reminding the reading of what they have read, intergrating the paragraph by highlighting special points of contrast etc.

5) Give a note of recommendation. Discuss the usefulness of the concerning articles. Which one do you believe is of most validity and why? Don't be too positive by saying article X is definitley the most accurate, discuss some of it's disadvantages/flaws as well.

See? SantaSlayer's dummies guide to medical essay writing.! :uhhuh: :p :uhhuh:

EDIT: Not solid advice, but yeah, help yourself. :p
 

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