Update me on VSU (1 Viewer)

[SashatheMan]

i'm not the one trying to use university facilities without paying union fees!

i am not using any facilities that uni offers. and if you are refering to classrooms or what eva. thats what HECS pays for.

 

[walrusbear]

i am not using any facilities that uni offers. and if you are refering to classrooms or what eva. thats what HECS pays for.

yeah but union fees are compulsory for attending university.

 

[Calculon]

walrusbear that's a stupid line of argument. This is precisely why they shouldn't be compulsory, because there are people such as Sasha who genuinely use none of the Union's facilities and as a consequence get the academic side of university fucked over because he follows the principle of freedom.

 

[walrusbear]

i was kind of taking the piss
but anyway
he should still have to pay because his money contributes to the union, which is an important part of the university infrastructure
user pay doesn't work for education buddies

 

[Calculon]

There are many aspects of the Union that anyone but a diehard marxist would struggle to identify as public goods. For example take the food, which loses them millions every year.

Why can't it work? Because all of those people on campus who you say support USU only do so in principle and when it comes to the crunch wouldn't pull out $600 if they didn't have to?

 

[walrusbear]

There are many aspects of the Union that anyone but a diehard marxist would struggle to identify as public goods. For example take the food, which loses them millions every year.

Why can't it work? Because all of those people on campus who you say support USU only do so in principle and when it comes to the crunch wouldn't pull out $600 if they didn't have to?

no one is saying that the union is flawless
but i think it's worth keeping as a universal system
it doesn't work otherwise.
there is more to lose than gain by throwing away things like universal advocacy, subsidised food, books etc. on campus welfare as well as the less quantifiable, but no less important, cultural impact union operated activites lend to university.

if anything is supported only in principle it is the VSU stance, which clings doggedly to a faith in user-pay and a right to freedom of association. in a practical sense this highly individualist stance does nothing in the long run for a giant amount of students; not to mention the overall quality of our education facilities

 

[Calculon]

The overall quality of education facilities would do well from a user pays system as well, albeit still a deferred one, so that universities no longer have to rely on full fee and intl students to make up for the losses they make on HECS spots.

 

[walrusbear]

The overall quality of education facilities would do well from a user pays system as well, albeit still a deferred one, so that universities no longer have to rely on full fee and intl students to make up for the losses they make on HECS spots.

in the classroom things wouldn't change significantly
but a university is, of course, more than students and classes
and how do you account for all the other things i mentioned?

 

[Calculon]

1. Subsidised food. You mean the average student buys $6000 worth of food on campus each year in order to get their money back from subsidies? I think not.
2. Student advocacy. If there was a completely separate voluntary $20 fee at the start of the year covering academic appeals etc as a form of insurance I am sure that many, if not most, students would pay it. Unless of course you're referring to the kind of advocacy that supports causes which many students don't agree with, in which case, stiff shit. If they can't survive based on the contributions of those who subscribe to the beliefs then there's not enough support behind them to justify their existence.
3. Textsinthecity is just across the road from the uni, makes a profit, and I believe that its rates are very similar to the SRC bookshop.
4. Cultural impact. Culture comes primarily from clubs and socs, which make up less than 3% of the union's spending, because they are essentially at the moment 50/50 between user pays and socialism. Moving them closer to 100% user pays wouldn't harm them too much imo, and if you don't want to I'm sure they can be fit in under just about any union budget with any amount of students subscribing at their current rate of subsidy. Parties such as snow/beachball can remain cheap for union members and be $10-15 for non members. People will still pay this if they are any good.

 

[walrusbear]

1. Subsidised food. You mean the average student buys $6000 worth of food on campus each year in order to get their money back from subsidies? I think not.
2. Student advocacy. If there was a completely separate voluntary $20 fee at the start of the year covering academic appeals etc as a form of insurance I am sure that many, if not most, students would pay it. Unless of course you're referring to the kind of advocacy that supports causes which many students don't agree with, in which case, stiff shit. If they can't survive based on the contributions of those who subscribe to the beliefs then there's not enough support behind them to justify their existence.
4. Cultural impact. Culture comes primarily from clubs and socs, which make up less than 3% of the union's spending, because they are essentially at the moment 50/50 between user pays and socialism. Moving them closer to 100% user pays wouldn't harm them too much imo, and if you don't want to I'm sure they can be fit in under just about any union budget with any amount of students subscribing at their current rate of subsidy. Parties such as snow/beachball can remain cheap for union members and be $10-15 for non members. People will still pay this if they are any good.

so why can't these services stay within a universal union system? seems like you have more gripes with the price of fees, rather than the concept itself.
i'm all for adjusting union fee levels to better represent students. the vsu policy seems counter-productive to this aim.
your faith in user pay suggests a belief that something is only worthwhile if it suits the majority - which would fuckover a lot of beneficial services of and for the marginalised.

 

[Calculon]

There are four categories services can fall into:
- small benefit for large number of people = lots of people willing to pay small amount = activity viable
- large benefit for large number of people = lots of people willing to pay large amount = activity flourishes
- large benefit for small number of people = small number of people willing to pay small amount = activity viable
- small benefit for small number of people = not viable

Services which benefit minorities will remain, if they are of enough benefit.

 

[walrusbear]

2. Student advocacy. If there was a completely separate voluntary $20 fee at the start of the year covering academic appeals etc as a form of insurance I am sure that many, if not most, students would pay it. Unless of course you're referring to the kind of advocacy that supports causes which many students don't agree with, in which case, stiff shit. If they can't survive based on the contributions of those who subscribe to the beliefs then there's not enough support behind them to justify their existence.

btw who do you expect to support academic appeals without union structure?

 

[Calculon]

If there were an independent group offering "academic insurance" at a buy in bulk rate for the university, then this would be supported.

 

[walrusbear]

There are four categories services can fall into:
- small benefit for large number of people = lots of people willing to pay small amount = activity viable
- large benefit for large number of people = lots of people willing to pay large amount = activity flourishes
- large benefit for small number of people = small number of people willing to pay small amount = activity viable
- small benefit for small number of people = not viable

Services which benefit minorities will remain, if they are of enough benefit.

i don't know what to say of this nonsense...

does this translate into 'all will be well'??
what reason is there to believe that your final comment is true?

 

[walrusbear]

If there were an independent group offering "academic insurance" at a buy in bulk rate for the university, then this would be supported.

would a university have to answer to an independent group?

the union is intrinsic with university function. which makes this sort of process easier. why is it absolutely necessary that this function be done 'independently' when it can be achieved successfully in its present collective form?

 

[Calculon]

Because they will be willing to pay large amounts for them.

 

[walrusbear]

Because they will be willing to pay large amounts for them.

what if it is very necessary to them but they are unable to pay large amounts for them...

 

[Calculon]

Then they can defer for a year and work.

 

[walrusbear]

Then they can defer for a year and work.

that's sidestepping the issue

 

[Calculon]

Sidestepping it how? If you wish special resources to be allocated to you, then you should reciprocate the favour by doing your part for society.