Update me on VSU (1 Viewer)

[Henry_Kissinger]

We can, and probably should in some instances.

Economists are trying to take over the social sciences and this 'lets analyse everything' approach is shit.

Besides, no one in Parliament is an economist - that is what the policy makers and people who work in treasury are for.

 

[Capitalist Pig]

it doesnt make me a thief


i utilise the services provided to me that i pay for what the fuck are you talking about

You pay for part of it, yes, but the other part is paid for by people who don't use it.

"Regardless of popular sanction...Taxation is Robbery" - M. Rothbard

if erewamai is right about ru486 my blood will boil.

As will mine.

 

[erawamai]

When asked whether the deal was based on something to do with abortion Senator Fielding said he couldn't remember what was exactly said in the meeting with the PM. This was put to Barnaby and he was less than impressed. OR at least this is the impression I got from fellows at channel 9 news.

Odds on VSU came about due to a compromise on abortion and RU 486.

 

[Capitalist Pig]

Also, forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I've yet to hear a convincing refutation of the comparison between union fees and taxes. Why should I pay taxes to the government for things I don't use?

Such a comparison is superfluous, because taxes should exist only for absolutely essential services.
I have never been hospitalised with an injury, so why should I have to pay tax towards anything but the maternity unit?[/quote]
It is in your interest not to have people with life threatening contagious diseases wandering around the place without treatment, because the chances of you catching such a disease would be increased greatly.

If I have no obligation to fund childcare places on my university campus, why should I be doing it for the rest of the workplace where the people are earning way more money?

You shouldn't.

Is this really a consistent stance, or is it just another example of politicians valuing their own ideology over expert opinion (in this case, the AVCC)?

The AVCC supports USU because if VSU comes in they might have to spend a tiny bit more money subsidising services. Read as: USU is in their interest, but not necessarily those oif their students.

 

[withoutaface]

Others (suc as myself) would argue that the safety net provided by the SRC and Union is of benefit to all, despite the fact that it's largely ignored till it is actually needed (think of it as a form of insurance). However, we have covered that point before, and few of the VSU ideologues were willing to concede that perhaps there may be an element of truth to such a point of view, so I don't see much point in renewing the debate.

If the SRC was a safety net and nothing more I would be more than willing to pay $20-30 "education insurance" each year. But the fact that they waste so much money on things which are actually of detriment to me (eg condoning violence against me and my colleagues), this well outweighs any benefit I could potentially draw in the incredibly unlikely situation that I fail a subject.

 

[Jonathan A]

yea but ive never used some of the roads that theyve been repairing in my local area..........why should i have to chip in with no choice and put my money into a pool of money for someone else to gain the benefit from when it has nothign to do with me?

We don't chip in as much as we do with VSU. We don't like paying taxes and rates but its part of having essential services. The Council don't spray over the road "HoWARd" or "Don't let Howard take the Uni out of the CommUNIty".

that is how hte tax system works so if people dont have a problem with that, why have such a problem with VSU which provides many more direct opportunities for gain (not necessarily taken) for people who pay?

I don't like taxes either. But again, its part of what we got to do for police services, emergencies, etc... Don't use big government analogies with a liberal, we like privatising.

i garauntee most people would lose more in tax that they pay every year for things that they dont use than the money they pay in CSU fees

Government does more for me in a week than the unions have done in my two years at uni.

 

[Jonathan A]

Ah the ranting and raving Jono A. Why don't you fire up more!!!!????

It is sad that the future of the Liberal Party of Australia is in the hands of nutjob conservatives who have no idea about the market. All they want to do is bag the lefties (do they even have any idea of what is left or right or is it an all inclusive catch cry for anyone who doesn’t agree with them?) rather then getting on with applying the core principles of the modern Liberal Party...NEO CLASSICAL ECONOMICS.

Oh and you know about the market. Suppose its like forcing people to buy goods or join something. Analogies can be drawn between the closed-shop unions and "U"SU.

What's good about your argument is you generalise so much. I hate people that stick me in a category and bag that category (ahh the Straw Man Fallacy). Regardless of what you THINK I believe, address my argument.

The modern Liberal party has very little to do with conservatism. If you think hard enough the conservative values that you claim as your own conflict heavily with core Liberal Party economic policy. I mean it doesn't stop the liberal party from asking for your vote based on its 'conservative' doctrine but if you are a real conservative you would realize that the Liberal doesn't do much for you. In any case neo classical economic dry doctrine hurts conservative values. I mean didn't the Liberal party just grant clinical trials to RU 486? Such a conservative bunch they are. If anything Big Kim has been accused of being more reactionary and more conservative than Howard.

Your point?

I think Withoutaface can attest to my assessment. Young Liberals are full of nutjobs who are obsessed with returning Australia to the 1950s, many of whom have no idea about economics the intricacies of the market. I think its scary that I would know more about market economics than some members of the young Liberals who never bothered to learn economic theory.

Did we have USU in the 1950s? I don't want to turn Australia back into the 1950s so stop making up lies and address my VSU arguments. Young Liberals are doing quite well.

You tie up $500 in term deposits and you earn 'quite a bit of interest'?

Better than giving it to those who will use it against me.

As for learning outside the university. A fair few of the front bench of the Liberal Party are 'academics', 'intellectuals' or 'elites'. In particular Costello is a Barrister and lecturer in law and Abbot is an Oxford Graduate etc etc. The Liberal party argument is an intellectual one about neoliberal economics that came out of universities that many people do not understand (Hence why the Liberal party cloaks itself in conservatism to win people over to the party. They learn the economics later).

Frog is referring to what CW Mills spoke about in his works, the pivotal position. Unions are very representative of this. For many years we have said owning the means of production earns you your power. Elites on the other hand are manipulative people behind the scenes. Different kind of 'elite'.

I believe the Liberal party may one day (way into the future) get into trouble by not encouraging intellectuals of the right into the party. Currently they are filling up the backbenches with people who are not 'intellectuals' like Costello, Abbot who may not have a total grasp of the intellectual argument and may loose their way in the future.

We have a lot of intellectual discussions, but we don't go around telling the everyday Australian 'we know best' cos we got a "BA" after our name.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I believe student representation against the university is needed... for all students.

 

[Phanatical]

Ideally, a student community in which everybody contributes would be the way to go. Universities SHOULD be not just about learning about a subject, but learning about how to be productive and active within Society - and that's what the USU fee is Intended to facilitate.

But I, like many others, have become disillusioned with our representative organisations. I have been attacked verbally, academically and physically for my views. My property has been damaged. My name has been slandered. My life has been threatened. All by people who claim to represent me and the rest of the student community.

How can I in good conscience support forcing poor students who barely earn enough to eat, to pay two weeks wages on demand to these corrupted arseholes who will use that money against students?

 

[erawamai]

Oh and you know about the market. Suppose its like forcing people to buy goods or join something. Analogies can be drawn between the closed-shop unions and "U"SU.

Um yes...I studied it at uni. I can understand true young Liberals, the ones that are there for neo classical economics not conservatism. As is VERY WELL KNOWN, conservatism doesn't sit to well with the Liberal party. It seems you haven’t yet discovered this.

What's good about your argument is you generalise so much. I hate people that stick me in a category and bag that category (ahh the Straw Man Fallacy). Regardless of what you THINK I believe, address my argument.

This post of yours hardly does anything to suggest my generalisation is incorrect. If you are going rant and rave and spurge out Liberal Party PR straight from the PR Company you are going to get categorised. We all know that life isn’t back and white as you present it. To see the Liberal party is totally and utterly good and never wrong and the Labor party as the pure evil hardly does anything to shake your categorisation. Perhaps if you engaged in a more calm discussion rather than flailing your arms about you might escape categorisation.

Did we have USU in the 1950s? I don't want to turn Australia back into the 1950s so stop making up lies and address my VSU arguments. Young Liberals are doing quite well.

You said you are a conservative. A conservative supports the status quo or would like social policy to go back in time. Which one are you? I mean IR reform is hardly conservative is it?

The modern Liberal party has very little to do with conservatism. If you think hard enough the conservative values that you claim as your own conflict heavily with core Liberal Party economic policy. I mean it doesn't stop the liberal party from asking for your vote based on its 'conservative' doctrine but if you are a real conservative you would realize that the Liberal doesn't do much for you. In any case neo classical economic dry doctrine hurts conservative values. I mean didn't the Liberal party just grant clinical trials to RU 486? Such a conservative bunch they are. If anything Big Kim has been accused of being more reactionary and more conservative than Howard.

Your point?

My point was that you paint yourself as a conservative. Real conservatives don't belong in the Liberal Party. This doesn’t mean the Liberal Party won’t accept your votes on the basis of your conservative beliefs but currently the most conservative government is the Labor party and not the Liberal government. Also, in general if anything is known about political doctrine, conservatism is very often directly in conflict with neoliberalism, libertarian beliefs and neo classical economics. The core's of the current Liberal party platform.

On the issue of arguments. You didn't make any arguments. Your argument consists of (to paraphrase)

Lefties are evil, they are not getting my money. Lefties are evil, they are not getting my money. They are idiots, all lefties. They are not getting my money.

Frog is referring to what CW Mills spoke about in his works, the pivotal position. Unions are very representative of this. For many years we have said owning the means of production earns you your power. Elites on the other hand are manipulative people behind the scenes. Different kind of 'elite'.

I'm talking about intellectual elites. Elites that people like you tend to deride. I was pointing out that people who formed the current Liberal party platform and policy are intellectual elites. The only difference is that these elites are from the economic right but of course you choose not to deride them. How convenient.

We have a lot of intellectual discussions, but we don't go around telling the everyday Australian 'we know best' cos we got a "BA" after our name.

1. My point was about the seemingly lack of people who grasp the market and neoliberal views in the young Liberals. There are a few young liberals who can attest to this. This doesn't mean you don't have intellectual discussions about other things.

We have a lot of intellectual discussions, but we don't go around telling the everyday Australian 'we know best' cos we got a "BA" after our name.

2. I'm sorry but I couldn't resist. Everytime you speak with an opinion you are telling people that you know best. I believe everyone does that everyday. You did it in your last post. You do it in everyone of your posts. In this case you go around telling people whats best with these in your signature.

Bachelor of Social Science (Criminology)/Bachelor of Laws-University of Western Sydney
UWSConnect - Parramatta Campus Committee Member
Mentor -Introduction to Business Law
Student-at-Law -Legal Profession Admission Board

"If society is tolerant and rational, it does not need a Bill of Rights. If it is not, no Bill of Rights will preserve it." Justice Gibb

1. Your degree
2. Your committee membership
3. Your other peer work
4. That you are a student at law
5. A one line quote that is meant to make all other arguments for a Bill of Rights useless but at the same time illustrating that you don't really understand the issue to sum up such a large issue with one line.

...To use your own words...just because you have all that stuff in your signature doesn't give you the right to go around telling everyday Australians that you know best. My right to do so is just as valid as yours isn't it? A right that Liberal party has and the Labor party has.

Honestly do you think before you post?

 

[llamalope]

well i know everybody is jumping for joy now, but I'm not happy. In fact, I'm disgusted. But don't consider this as a personal attack against any young liberals on this board (my best friend is a young liberal). John howard and his band of plotters (costello, abbott and nelson) in my humble opinion (which is neither right nor wrong) has just signed the death warrent for university clubs and societies (amongst other things), and now my humble little society, which has brought joy to many people including myself, will be effectively shut down due to the costs (especially 3rd party indemnity insurance) that will be imposed when this bill becomes a law.

I'm sorry, but I'm angry.

 

[withoutaface]

Three. Per. Cent.

This is how much of the Union's income is spent of clubs and societies.

Clubs and societies are among the most important things to the union.

They could afford to fund them many times over.

Your society will not die because of VSU.

 

[withoutaface]

Um yes...I studied it at uni. I can understand true young Liberals, the ones that are there for neo classical economics not conservatism. As is VERY WELL KNOWN, conservatism doesn't sit to well with the Liberal party. It seems you haven’t yet discovered this.


This post of yours hardly does anything to suggest my generalisation is incorrect. If you are going rant and rave and spurge out Liberal Party PR straight from the PR Company you are going to get categorised. We all know that life isn’t back and white as you present it. To see the Liberal party is totally and utterly good and never wrong and the Labor party as the pure evil hardly does anything to shake your categorisation. Perhaps if you engaged in a more calm discussion rather than flailing your arms about you might escape categorisation.


You said you are a conservative. A conservative supports the status quo or would like social policy to go back in time. Which one are you? I mean IR reform is hardly conservative is it?



My point was that you paint yourself as a conservative. Real conservatives don't belong in the Liberal Party. This doesn’t mean the Liberal Party won’t accept your votes on the basis of your conservative beliefs but currently the most conservative government is the Labor party and not the Liberal government. Also, in general if anything is known about political doctrine, conservatism is very often directly in conflict with neoliberalism, libertarian beliefs and neo classical economics. The core's of the current Liberal party platform.

On the issue of arguments. You didn't make any arguments. Your argument consists of (to paraphrase)

Lefties are evil, they are not getting my money. Lefties are evil, they are not getting my money. They are idiots, all lefties. They are not getting my money.


I'm talking about intellectual elites. Elites that people like you tend to deride. I was pointing out that people who formed the current Liberal party platform and policy are intellectual elites. The only difference is that these elites are from the economic right but of course you choose not to deride them. How convenient.



1. My point was about the seemingly lack of people who grasp the market and neoliberal views in the young Liberals. There are a few young liberals who can attest to this. This doesn't mean you don't have intellectual discussions about other things.


2. I'm sorry but I couldn't resist. Everytime you speak with an opinion you are telling people that you know best. I believe everyone does that everyday. You did it in your last post. You do it in everyone of your posts. In this case you go around telling people whats best with these in your signature.



1. Your degree
2. Your committee membership
3. Your other peer work
4. That you are a student at law
5. A one line quote that is meant to make all other arguments for a Bill of Rights useless but at the same time illustrating that you don't really understand the issue to sum up such a large issue with one line.

...To use your own words...just because you have all that stuff in your signature doesn't give you the right to go around telling everyday Australians that you know best. My right to do so is just as valid as yours isn't it? A right that Liberal party has and the Labor party has.

Honestly do you think before you post?

While what you have said is true of the party at large, unfortunately the Young Libs is dominated by those obsessed with conservative social policy.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

In fact, I'm disgusted. But don't consider this as a personal attack against any young liberals on this board (my best friend is a young liberal). John howard and his band of plotters (costello, abbott and nelson) in my humble opinion (which is neither right nor wrong) has just signed the death warrent for university clubs and societies (amongst other things), and now my humble little society, which has brought joy to many people including myself, will be effectively shut down due to the costs (especially 3rd party indemnity insurance) that will be imposed when this bill becomes a law.

The problem here is that if your club has brought joy to people, then they should be willing to pay for union membership / your club to keep it open. Of course anything for FREE is going to seem pretty awesome....

It just seems to me that you're angry because you know your club isn't that awesome and everyone's going to decide they'd rather keep their $100 and forget about your club.

 

[loquasagacious]

While what you have said is true of the party at large, unfortunately the Young Libs is dominated by those obsessed with conservative social policy.

At the ANU as far as I know only one active member of the young libs has done microeconomics1 - the most basic of neo-classical courses. The overwhelming majority of members are so called 'dry' members - social conservatives who support economic 'progressiveness' (eg IR reform and VSU) simply because it is the party line.

Were this not the case I would join however I can not conscionably join a group as socially conservative as the young libs are.

Oh and insofar as the economics shouldnt be applied universally - why not? It is uniquely suited to such broad applications. Your beef with it is not actually with its use (this is a straw man), it is with its application. If for instance it was applied and decided that the social marginal benefit of USU was higher than the private marginal benefit (which I think is probably true). Furthermore that the difference was so great that USU was needed to ensure a socially optimal/efficient outcome.

Then you would have no problem with it. You in fact agree with this but dont phrase it economically, that is the marvels of neo-classical economics your anti argument can be interpreted by neo-con econ and easily addressed. So how about you stop setting up 'omg you heartless economists applying your bean counting to everything suck' straw man and present a case for USU being hugely in the social benefit....

@NTB obviously joy isn't worth $100 to him.....

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Think of how much joy you could buy for $100

 

[loquasagacious]

I wouldn't know

 

[erawamai]

Think of how much joy you could buy for $100

100 bucks doesn't buy much these days.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Oh erawamai... let me take you out for a night on the town.

 

[erawamai]

Oh erawamai... let me take you out for a night on the town.

I don't go on the 'town'. I also don't drink. I'm an extremely boring person. Only slightly weird girls find me attractive. If I had $100 I'd stuff it in the bank and invest it....or maybe examine the notes and comment on the security measures built into the note. I also don't laugh much. The last thing I went to was a friends 21st bday and I had to go home early because I forgot my ID (Going to go home early anyways because I had to study). In any case I had to walk a girl back to college (protect her from the druken engineers who wander around campus at midnight) who had forgotten ( ) that her 20% law assignment was due the next day.

The only other thing I did last session was go to law revue, which was funny.

I'm now going to learn the corporations law, federal constitutional and litigation before the session starts so I can get better marks. I have a really really exciting life.