voluntary student unionism? good or bad? (3 Viewers)

[withoutaface]

No mr bright ideas. How do you expect to implement that?

I actually wonder if you read a single thing in this thread or even if you get the idea that you sound like a selfish git when you say 'I dont want to pay for the sports assocication because I dont use it. But I'd pay to support the manning'

Just like those out there who pay their unions fees would see no reason why alcohlol should be subsisdied on campus.

Well in this case those who want to play sport but not drink can support the sports union but not manning. And also I somehow doubt that $100+ from each student goes towards the bar as it does to the sports union.

 

[Generator]

VSU may suggest that nobody would be willing to fork out $500 a year ($600 for first years), but at the same time that isn't to say that nobody would be willing to pay $271, $144 or $66 a year... I'm still in favour of USU, though.

 

[Xayma]

But I think that those of you who support VSU have to understand that Unions don't just spout political rhetoric and give free BBQ's. Yes, they do those things. Yes they are a little leftist - ok, very leftist But they are autonomous. They are run by students, for students. They represent all students - women, racial minorities, gay/queer, and even the the males and the whites.

Without the USU students will be left entirely on their own. Face it, nobody is going to cough up $600 voluntarily. Without the Union, there will be nobody to protect the interest of students.

Except that those services are mostly run by the SRC which costs us about $67 not $600.

The problem being it is mostly the SRC that runs the campaigns.

 

[Generator]

Well in this case those who want to play sport but not drink can support the sports union but not manning. And also I somehow doubt that $100+ from each student goes towards the bar as it does to the sports union.

As a Engineering/Science student, you are likely to spend more time at Wentworth than Manning .

 

[withoutaface]

As a Engineering/Science student, you are likely to spend more time at Wentworth than Manning .

All dependent on where the asian commerce chicks and the bands are Josh

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Manning bar will have the 10c beers and the sports assocciation will have to withdraw from the competitions.

Awesome

 

[withoutaface]

That will mean manning will not get as cheap drink because those sports association people who dont want to subsidise your drug dependence will withdraw their money from the manning union support that they once HAD to contribute.

Resulting in more expessive beer. The less people who contribute over all the poored the subsidy and support.

I would gladly pay more money for each individual component due to it being supported by less people if I knew my money was going somewhere worthwhile.

 

[withoutaface]

...yep...cheap beer...a true modern man...self serving to the extreme that he rather get cheap beer than give his money away to queers.

If the queers want their own space they can bloody well pay for it, I'm not the one running away from/discriminating against them in the main areas, so why should I pay for them to be protected from the couple of rednecks that do?

 

[withoutaface]

Disgusting. But it doesnt matter anyways. Your beer will be dearer.

---------------------------------

Weaken every other body in your own interest so you can save money. You seem to make out that the Queers take millions of dollars out of the budget. I'm sure about a very very small promportion of your unions fees go towards gay rights etc. So I guess you can get your 5 bucks back and reallocate their into the manning.


Withoutaface I'd characterise you as a stereotypical redneck.

You'd think being a third of the way through a degree in combined arguing you'd be able to attempt strip my argument down without resorting to personal insults, wouldn't you?

I don't give a fuck if my beer is dearer, just so long as it is still there. Let me put this to you: the bar is a place for everyone to socialise, have fun, and sure drink a bit, straights and gays alike can go there. Queer space is a place for queers to socialise. Which one is supporting the greater good?

 

[Xayma]

Actually that is probably right Asq.

Given that around 4.5% go to childcare, school tutouring, careers days, women's and queer publications.

The biggest is Member Services (clubs societies, Manning etc).

But the second biggest (around $80) goes towards building replacment, VSU contingency funds, and long term planning funds.

The principle of student unions I have no problem with. However, when they run political campaigns that directly oppose my beliefs (imagine Australia running a pro America campaign in Japan for comparison) it really annoys me.

If they did semesterise the payments, promoted what the union done now, and actually made a profit on food and drinks (currently a 1 million defecit (8 million cost, 7 million income)) it could survive.

 

[withoutaface]

Its simply disguting. I did strip your argument down.

Here it is.

You dont care about anyone but yourself. You will not give one cent to anyone who doesn't share your interests even if it destroys their enterprise. You make a point about gays and feminists. You don't want a single bit of your money going to these groups. You therefore summise that student unions are a waste (but not if they support your manning bar)

If you're going to completely ignore the basis of my argument and nitpick the small details at the edges you can do that, but I'm withdrawing now cause you're being a fuckwit.

Oh and if you want to get into which one of us is a selfish asshole, I've got plenty on you, don't you worry.

 

[transcendent]

Subski, Inner Child, Scisoc, SUEUA, Liberals.

Inner Child Society is new isn't it? They could never afford to create a new society without the USU $5000 grant they give to each society.
I'm against the propaganda, the flyers, the feminists, far-lefties but I'm against VSU even though it has its strong points. The problems with VSU is that it is user pays:
The Senate in charge of handling university affairs like a court system ( you were sick and need to appeal for that one day absence that cost you your entire semester cause without passing it you fail the course ).
Security that looks after the students.
Access that looks after student welfare.
Sure these are great things to pay for $100 per person.

Then comes the subsidies from clubs and societies, food, alcohol, sports/cultural organisations.
You want alcohol subsidies but don't want anything else subsidies. Ultimately you want a two systems proposal. One is Universal Student Unionism for the neccessities. The other is Voluntary Student Unionism for your interests. But wait! Cause some people don't like the security guys and don't think they should pay for them until on day they get robbed or get into a fight. Another says tehy don't know the help from the SRC to appeal to the Senate cause they wont need it when they get kicked out of uni for failing a course when they were sick. The purpose of USU is to satisfy as broad a proportion of the student body as possible so that EVERYONE has fun and can enjoy themselves.
I do agree it is expensive and that user pays would be great paying for what you want but NOT EVERYONE WANTS WHAT YOU WANT. If no one joined the society you really wanted to join then it wont exist for lack of funding and lack of members. No subsidies means cheap beer is expensive beer and you may end up paying a whole lot more for it.

 

[withoutaface]

Inner Child Society is new isn't it? They could never afford to create a new society without the USU $5000 grant they give to each society.
I'm against the propaganda, the flyers, the feminists, far-lefties but I'm against VSU even though it has its strong points. The problems with VSU is that it is user pays:
The Senate in charge of handling university affairs like a court system ( you were sick and need to appeal for that one day absence that cost you your entire semester cause without passing it you fail the course ).
Security that looks after the students.
Access that looks after student welfare.
Sure these are great things to pay for $100 per person.

Then comes the subsidies from clubs and societies, food, alcohol, sports/cultural organisations.
You want alcohol subsidies but don't want anything else subsidies. Ultimately you want a two systems proposal. One is Universal Student Unionism for the neccessities. The other is Voluntary Student Unionism for your interests. But wait! Cause some people don't like the security guys and don't think they should pay for them until on day they get robbed or get into a fight. Another says tehy don't know the help from the SRC to appeal to the Senate cause they wont need it when they get kicked out of uni for failing a course when they were sick. The purpose of USU is to satisfy as broad a proportion of the student body as possible so that EVERYONE has fun and can enjoy themselves.
I do agree it is expensive and that user pays would be great paying for what you want but NOT EVERYONE WANTS WHAT YOU WANT. If no one joined the society you really wanted to join then it wont exist for lack of funding and lack of members. No subsidies means cheap beer is expensive beer and you may end up paying a whole lot more for it.

Inner child got $350 or around that from the USU in case you're interested.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Interesting arguments for and against..

I feel the Student Union may need to take up a 'friendlier' position if it wants to survive, at the moment even if it was voluntary i would be willing to pay the $600 or whatever (i dunno how much it is at uws) However I may change my mind and decide instead of paying $600 towards something that I in parts support, in others don't, i'll give my money to a group that is much more inclined to my interests.

 

[Generator]

All dependent on where the asian commerce chicks and the bands are Josh

Bands would be at Manning, but for the asian commerce chicks you cannot go past Wentworth Level 4.

Asquithian, part of the problem with regards to USU is that its benefits appear to be non-existant for many (note the appear)... If USU is to be supported at large, then it must seem relevant to all. The fact that it is of use counts for little if a student can see no benefit (in all likelihood because they do not make use of the facilities, but you cannot blame a student for that when they live so far away, must work, have other priorities to attend to, etc... University life is changing, for better or worse, after all).

Make USU seem worthwhile, and then it will be supported by all. It's that simple.

I don't understand the arguments against minority causes, though... The only rallies that the SRC at USyd support at large are those that concern all students (The Nelson Review, for example), and I can see no reason to question the need for a queer collective or a woman's room when they hardly make a nuisance of themselves and provide much needed support for those who most often need it. Just remember that all students are able to seek help through the services of the SRC before you start asking why a men's room does not exist.

 

[transcendent]

I'm don't like USU but I don't like VSU even more. I would however like USU for essentials and VSU for clubs and societies.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Nah i don't really mind that.
ie; i'd be willing to donate a fair bit to child care, and i dun mind if some struggling mother doesn't chip in.

I wouldn't be paying to subsidise beer lol

 

[transcendent]

If USU goes then only the more profitable societies will remain meaning they will be profit driven more then welfare driven. The only events that go ahead will be those that generate money or advertisement.
Beachball which runs every year for free for USU members will be non-existant or you'd have to pay for it.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

An interesting idea would be for the unionversity to fund to union and simple subsume the cost of the union into the tutition fees of the students.

It's just when you start making certain things optional. NO ONE will pay.

I have a feeling that this is what will happen when the government makes student unions voluntary...

edit: I'd like to point out that not many people have come into this discussion saying "My accademic life will be over with VSU!!!"

Hey! That's a good idea asquthian! I think the government should put forward a voluntary tax for public schools!!

 

[transcendent]

By academic you mean social?