Where are the standards of a University education heading? (2 Viewers)

[blue_chameleon]

Unleashed: The end of 'going to Uni'

Some readers will remember "going to Uni". This was an experience shared by a small number of Australians, who were academically very able as well as financially secure, or assisted by Government. "Going to Uni" meant participating in an elite experience, where personal connections with peers and sometimes with professors were highly significant; where both cultivation and critique of western and other intellectual traditions and other forms of pure learning were usually entertained, beyond recent fashion or current demand for skills; where the texture of life usually involved other demands or pursuits, whether social activities or social activism, beyond the lectures and the jobs necessary to maintain the mere facts of studying and staying alive.

"Going to Uni" has been languishing for some years, and Deputy Prime Minister Julia Gillard recently proclaimed the epitaph drafted for it by Professor Denise Bradley's recent Review of higher education in Australia. Part of this proclamation is just the description of reality. As the DPM put it in her speech last week, the changes of the last few decades have seen the transformation of "a tiny, boutique higher education system into first an elite, then a popular, and finally a mass system". "Mass" will mean 40 per cent of Australians completing degrees. Elite, it is not.

Doubtless there are things to mourn about the end of the old model. There is a more profound vision attached to the idea of a "university" than current policies reflect. There is far too little involved in the student experience of many attending Australian institutions of higher learning, beyond their formal classes and qualifications.

"Going to Uni" no longer means anything more than that someone is undertaking a post-secondary course. As the system itself seeks to do more and more, just being in the system will come to mean less and less.

The article is an bit of a bore imo, but the comments underneath are present some interesting points of discussion.

I think a lot of the problem with universities these days is that they're trying to be all things to all people. This dilutes their worth.

We can't continue to have 37 unis teaching 37 business courses, 37 social science degrees and 30 communication degrees. The notion of branding oneself as being a vocational or elite university is meaningless when seven or eight others do the same.

Opinions?

 

[Iron]

It's political bullshit. It has become impossible to say that dumb people cant get a degree.

The result is that an undergraduate degree shows little more than an ability to stick to something for a period of time; the private sector have taken on the job of really educating because they can more easily discriminate based on talent

so, like, high school is a process about getting a foot in the door at uni, while uni is about getting your foot into the corporate door

IT WASNT MEANT TO BE LIKE THIS

 

[blue_chameleon]

It's political bullshit. It has become impossible to say that dumb people cant get a degree.

The result is that an undergraduate degree shows little more than an ability to stick to something for a period of time; the private sector have taken on the job of really educating because they can more easily discriminate based on talent

so, like, high school is a process about getting a foot in the door at uni, while uni is about getting your foot into the corporate door

IT WASNT MEANT TO BE LIKE THIS

Agreed. Accounting is an example of this. The fact that the Big 4 firms accept graduates from across all disciplines, especially B.Eng grads, and all the only restriction placed on them is they have to spend longer completing their CA/CPA studies.

20 years earlier, you'd be laughed at if you applied without having done accounting studies.

A foot in the door indeed, albeit a very expensive one.

 

[whatashotbyseve]

We are back on more agreeable territory here Iron. I completely concur about the link between high school, uni and the corporate world.

What can be done about it though? Do corporates accept straight from high school? But high school and the HSC has never been about processing raw talent. Any major changes would look like political suicide. No government has ever had to deal with the concept of university as a mass educational option. It is really uncharted waters here.

 

[Lentern]

It's political bullshit. It has become impossible to say that dumb people cant get a degree.

The result is that an undergraduate degree shows little more than an ability to stick to something for a period of time; the private sector have taken on the job of really educating because they can more easily discriminate based on talent

so, like, high school is a process about getting a foot in the door at uni, while uni is about getting your foot into the corporate door

IT WASNT MEANT TO BE LIKE THIS

You mustn't sneer at other people's intellect and lack of academic pursuits. It was you who said so after all, if people want to be stupid that's their right and who are you to deny them the same luxuries you enjoy on account of it.

 

[Iron]

I agree, whatashot. A degree is practically seen as a right, not a privilege. The reality is that only ~10% of the population deserve a tertiary education.

The other problem is the way that education is under constant pressure to squeeze out profit. Universities are compelled to seek dollars, not truth

 

[whatashotbyseve]

Hence the ever increasing swathe of international students.

Perhaps our entire educational curriculum needs to be changed. I propose we condense all of our current HSC content so that it finishes by the end of year 10. Completion of this course is mandatory for all students. Years 11 and 12 are effectively 'university' for a set 'elite' - say top 20% of students from a variety of criteria - not just pure academic marks - generating skill sets desirable for corporates.

 

[Lentern]

I agree, whatashot. A degree is practically seen as a right, not a privilege. The reality is that only ~10% of the population deserve a tertiary education.

Oh good lord you didn't. And to then have the arrogance to suggest you're in the ten percent... Ask yourself if Mary would approve of this.

 

[whatashotbyseve]

Lentern, are you at uni or still doing HSC? If you go to university your first question will be (regardless of uni) how did some of these people get in here? I ask this question nearly every day I am there. Hell, look at some of the posters on this forum and consider their intellect.

A degree has become nothing more than a piece of paper. What use is that piece of paper if you have spent at least three years learning nothing from it?

 

[blue_chameleon]

I agree, whatashot. A degree is practically seen as a right, not a privilege. The reality is that only ~10% of the population deserve a tertiary education.

The other problem is the way that education is under constant pressure to squeeze out profit. Universities are compelled to seek dollars, not truth

Is the ideal of universities specialising in specific fields, really attainable? If so, how?

Who decides which universities specialise in what fields, and on what basis?

 

[Iron]

You have the arrogance to suggest that youre in the 10% of fags, dont you Lentern?

Whatashot: I'm not sure what can really be changed. Corporate thinktanks are probably sufficient, but it's not really the same!

 

[Lentern]

Lentern, are you at uni or still doing HSC? If you go to university your first question will be (regardless of uni) how did some of these people get in here? I ask this question nearly every day I am there. Hell, look at some of the posters on this forum and consider their intellect.

A degree has become nothing more than a piece of paper. What use is that piece of paper if you have spent at least three years learning nothing from it?

I'm first year uni and I do mentally sneer at many of my peers you are correct. However I see no more likely path to their intellectual improvement than at university with a few exceptions. I'm not suggesting they should be able to collect their degrees without meeting the requirements of the course but they have as much right as I to sit in the classess, do the readings and attempt the assessments. I will say some are a little less derserving of the right to ask the lecturer for assistance on the eve of assessments having counted sheep for the past month.

 

[Fogell]

i read somewhere might have been on BOS, 150000 uni offers were made through out australia and 11000 rejected them and how uni's need to cash in one these people who reject offers... but thats 150000 new students going into uni but after 4 or 3 or 5 or whateva number of years later there honestly can't be that many grad positions available for all of us.

I mean look at accounting there are over a 1000ish accounting students in 1st year at mac, plus 500ish each (im only estimating from 1st year pre-reqs) at usyd, UNSW, UTS UWS(heaps) so how on earth can there be that many grad positions.

I don't know about u guys but i sense an accounting bubble like the IT bubble OFFTOPIC i know but its an example of whats happening too many people are getting into courses not as many grad positions available ==> lowers equilibrium wages for all of us and reduces the integrity of professions.

the international students will get their PR's most will stay and hunt for jobs too its all going to unravel in a few years...


EDIT: only taking accounting as an example not bashing accountants same with engineering/finance/marketing all corporate type jobs barring law/actuarial etc that have barrieres of entry through clerkships/exams etc

 

[whatashotbyseve]

Sales and Marketing is one of the very few areas to have recorded employment growth. I have timed my run well.

 

[Fogell]

only a few pick marketing so itl be alright in away but accounting every second person u bump into at uni is doing it...


10 -15 years ago it would have been the same thing with IT software engineering 'oh lets be the next bill gates hehehehehe'

now its turned to 'oh lets be the next donald trump!!! i know ill do accounting!!!!'

 

[banco55]

It's clear to anyone who goes to uni that too large a slice of each year 12 cohort is going to Uni. I haven't seen firm data but I strongly suspect that millions of dollars are wasted each year by marginal students who shouldn't be at uni in the first place dropping out after 1-3 semesters. Only 15-20 % of each 18 year old cohort should be going to uni every year.

 

[whatashotbyseve]

Of course you are correct in theory but universities get millions from incompatible students. They will not upset the apple cart if they can avoid it.

 

[Lentern]

only a few pick marketing so itl be alright in away but accounting every second person u bump into at uni is doing it...


10 -15 years ago it would have been the same thing with IT software engineering 'oh lets be the next bill gates hehehehehe'

now its turned to 'oh lets be the next donald trump!!! i know ill do accounting!!!!'

From my unhappy high school experience I recall an epidemic of people who lived for a comfortable life and a sturdy job. As a result relatively intelligent people who would memorise their syllabi but had bugger all interest in actual intellectual pursuits were lining themselves up for accounting and engineering degrees.

 

[Fogell]

i think all uni's should adopt something similiar to the Umelb model, essentially becoming yanks

we should all have to do some generic arts or science or business degree and from their only the brightest minds are allowed to get into the mba-(the commerce degree now) JD-(llb now) and then the health science/med/dent courses

otherwise its going to be hectic finding ur first job and then finding ur second job with so many people with degrees

 

[Iron]

Yeah i've always been a fan of the preliminary general degree, but idk. The talent will usually go corporate and there they will usually meet the old talent and be trained in the elite ways, out of the public eye.