Who is a Secular Humanist? (2 Viewers)

[HumanDichotomy]

I think that both secularism and humanism are extremely important but I don't think that the application of a secular position to humanism is necessarily inherently superior to other positions. In my opinion, humanism, in that it 'attaches importance to human dignity, concerns, and capabilities, particularly rationality' is crucial. However, I believe that it doesn't matter whether this belief comes from religious reasoning, e.g. 'That we should value other humans because God has given this humanity to all of us, therefore, it would rationally follow that acknowledging shared humanity is crucial' or that it comes from secular reasoning, e.g. 'That we should value all humans equally because we are all human'. In the end, if different perspectives lead to the same, positive conclusion, i.e. that the most important thing is to value humans as possessing inherent worth and equality, then it shouldn't matter whether that perspective is secular or religious.

 

[ComingUpForAir]

he espoused ideas that can be considered parallel with that of Secular Humanism, which alone gives him merit, at least on an intellectual level. It was not intended to be a shot at Jesus, on the contrary.

not sure how vicarious redemption through human sacrifice fits into secular humanism..
People should not 'label' themselves, leave that for others, and anyway.. talking about labels is dumb, and boring

 

[Tangent]

I likes it.

 

[spyro14]

Said this once before i'm saying it again

"It is sometimes suggested that all this talk of sacred objects and sacrosanct principles is so much empty rhetoric."

Ben Rogers

Lets assume a person who is not religious and is a human secularist goes through life with his generally good intentions. He might do this because he believes that if he's good other people will be good to him, maybe it's just because his virtue is never really tested by circumstance. I don't see either of these reasons as good enough to hold any trust in this person if he is given the opportunity to sell me out for his material personal gain.

Apparently it is my lack of trust in mankind to do the right thing that is the reason for all its problems, yes it probably makes it worse since a cynical view would make those holding it become bitter and angry of the entire world. Is it unjustified? No..

Smiletime once said to me if god does exist in the way Christians believe then why is it there is infinite punishment in hell for finite sins. Well what is there short of that which would discourage greed and corruption. Answer? Nothing. Look at our own system of punishment for crimes, a life sentence is not enough to discourage some from commiting murder. A lot of the time it's quite similar to the notion of going to hell for being a sinner. When someone murders another person they generally hope they wont get caught, it's the same with the idea of hell, i'm sure there is a huge number of people that hope it doesn't exist rather than trying to make its disputable existence irrelevant by not stealing, raping, murdering and so on.

So it would seem to me as though whether punishment is an option in the afterlife or just the plain old regular life that society will be doomed to watch its morals decay as a consequence of its own actions and then probably blame it on isrealies or some crap. Human secularism and Christianity will both fail since it's humans that follow them, neither beau ideal will work.

 

[S.H.O.D.A.N.]

Said this once before i'm saying it again

"It is sometimes suggested that all this talk of sacred objects and sacrosanct principles is so much empty rhetoric."

Ben Rogers

Lets assume a person who is not religious and is a human secularist goes through life with his generally good intentions. He might do this because he believes that if he's good other people will be good to him, maybe it's just because his virtue is never really tested by circumstance. I don't see either of these reasons as good enough to hold any trust in this person if he is given the opportunity to sell me out for his material personal gain.

Apparently it is my lack of trust in mankind to do the right thing that is the reason for all its problems, yes it probably makes it worse since a cynical view would make those holding it become bitter and angry of the entire world. Is it unjustified? No..

Smiletime once said to me if god does exist in the way Christians believe then why is it there is infinite punishment in hell for finite sins. Well what is there short of that which would discourage greed and corruption. Answer? Nothing. Look at our own system of punishment for crimes, a life sentence is not enough to discourage some from commiting murder. A lot of the time it's quite similar to the notion of going to hell for being a sinner. When someone murders another person they generally hope they wont get caught, it's the same with the idea of hell, i'm sure there is a huge number of people that hope it doesn't exist rather than trying to make its disputable existence irrelevant by not stealing, raping, murdering and so on.

So it would seem to me as though whether punishment is an option in the afterlife or just the plain old regular life that society will be doomed to watch its morals decay as a consequence of its own actions and then probably blame it on isrealies or some crap. Human secularism and Christianity will both fail since it's humans that follow them, neither beau ideal will work.

Nihilist detected.

 

[spyro14]

Nihilist detected.

Nihilism: The doctrine that nothing can be known; scepticism as to all knowledge and all reality

Not entirely true, but it might as well be.

My biggest observation, humankind is obsessed with three things in life. A third is the noble cause of searching for answers, another third is shooting down the answer they didn't think of. The final third is having sex.

 

[evilflic]

Me.

 

[Tangent]

Nihilism: The doctrine that nothing can be known; scepticism as to all knowledge and all reality

Not entirely true, but it might as well be.

My biggest observation, humankind is obsessed with three things in life. A third is the noble cause of searching for answers, another third is shooting down the answer they didn't think of. The final third is having sex.

that's a big generalisation

 

[spyro14]

Nevertheless it is what I see, a selfish indignant race predictably cruel when free of consequence. Built upon hypocrisy, a brittle support for civilisation. Made up of some who condemn killing of lesser creatures but then ignore the needs of equals around them. Others who are so possessive that no line exist between themselves and what they *know* belongs to them. There are some who find pleasure in taking what does not belong to them. Oh and my favourite, those who notoriously support acts of kindness when sacrifice is not requested, but then umm and arrr their way right out of it.

And me? just like most I contribute to all of it. I have found that when I try to help others they resent me out of irrationality, how do you deal with irrationality? the point of it is that you can't understand it. So what do you do in a world where partisanship is at least sometimes rewarded and virtue goes unnoticed.

 

[Smile_Time351]

And me? just like most I contribute to all of it. I have found that when I try to help others they resent me out of irrationality, how do you deal with irrationality? the point of it is that you can't understand it. So what do you do in a world where partisanship is at least sometimes rewarded and virtue goes unnoticed.

Firstly, It's nice to see that my infinite punishment argument made such an impression on you Spyro, although it would have been nice if you had've voiced your objection at the time, in order to make the guy I was attacking feel a little less stupid. But I digress.

The fatalist attitude you expressed above is not unfounded, but it is unecessary. To resign oneself to apathy at the human condition is rather pointless. The resent you mentioned receiving is not all-pervasive, and that is what makes your efforts worthwhile. If you help 6 billion people and all but one resent you, then the helping is still worth it. That person can help one person, who can help one person ad infinitum, until the most infinitesimal of differences becomes monumental. That Ladies and Gents, is the epitome of the practical application of my definition of Humanism. HD had it right in my books, the secular part is too subjective, to me it is the Humanism that is far more important.

Although the efforts taken in the interests of greater humanity may seem hopeless, they should be taken anyway, because one day, they may work, and that possibility makes it all worthwhile in my book.

In conclusion- Cheer up Spyro. It's bad, but not that bad. <sings> Always look on the bright side of life...

 

[Tangent]

Nevertheless it is what I see, a selfish indignant race predictably cruel when free of consequence. Built upon hypocrisy, a brittle support for civilisation. Made up of some who condemn killing of lesser creatures but then ignore the needs of equals around them. Others who are so possessive that no line exist between themselves and what they *know* belongs to them. There are some who find pleasure in taking what does not belong to them. Oh and my favourite, those who notoriously support acts of kindness when sacrifice is not requested, but then umm and arrr their way right out of it.

And me? just like most I contribute to all of it. I have found that when I try to help others they resent me out of irrationality, how do you deal with irrationality? the point of it is that you can't understand it. So what do you do in a world where partisanship is at least sometimes rewarded and virtue goes unnoticed.

The world is not all like that. Sure it happens, but i also doesnt happen.

And if you try to help people, doesnt that mean that you are different already? What about others? They dont fit into this mold that you have created.

People are often unreasonable, illogical and self-centered;
Forgive them anyway.

If you are kind, people may accuse you
of selfish, ulterior motives;
Be kind anyway.

If you are successful, you will win some
false friends and some true enemies;
Succeed anyway.

If you are honest and frank, people may cheat you;
Be honest and frank anyway.

What you spend years building,
someone could destroy overnight;
Build anyway.

If you find serenity and happiness,
they may be jealous;
Be happy anyway.

The good you do today, people will
forget tomorrow,
Do good anyway.

Give the world the best you have, and
it may never be enough;
Give the world the best you've got ... anyway.

You see, in the final analysis, it is
between you and God,
It never was between you and them anyway..

-Mother Teresa

I'm not religious and i can still see the sense in this poem

 

[Smile_Time351]

Congrats Tangent, that was probably the best possible thing to say given the circumstances. You pretty much voiced my viewpoint, albeit more eloquently. And likewise, my non-believingness does not stop me from seeing the meaning and significance thereof of Mother Teresa's words. God or no God, the message is pertinent, and to redirect this back to Spyro, as a believer yourself, your reaction should be doubly positive to mine, given that you have extra basis for it.

 

[spyro14]

That's nice and then mother Teresa died from a failure in her left heart ventricle whilst suffering from malaria.

 

[Planck]

Cool Mother Teresa was a psychotic individual who got her sexual kicks from seeing the ill suffer and die.

Great moral leader.

 

[Iron]

Cool Mother Teresa was a psychotic individual who got her sexual kicks from seeing the ill suffer and die.

Great moral leader.

That kind of Hitchens poison could only come from one


Has the dark lord returned???

 

[Cookie182]

That kind of Hitchens poison could only come from one


Has the dark lord returned???

Could it be Hitchens truth?

I agree it would be morally repugnant of Hitchens to put out a whole book of lies condemning the supposed "good work" of a well loved public figure. If there was no factual evidence to support his claims, it would also be detrimental to his career. What motivation oculd he have had to propogate a book full of hate and falsehood?

The better explanation is that he did his research and upon review of the available facts wrote an honest enquiry.

I bet you haven't even read it Iron anyway.

 

[Iron]

what m8

 

[Cookie182]

what m8

The missionary position: Mother ... - Google Books

 

[Iron]

u keep editing your posts after ive replied to them you greasy bastard

 

[Tangent]

That's nice and then mother Teresa died from a failure in her left heart ventricle whilst suffering from malaria.

So? Her words still ring true, even after death.