Why do people hate religion? (3 Viewers)

[robbie1]

Is it a good one to hear?

Define 'good' in this context.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Define 'good' in this context.

Will it make me giggle?

Please just tell us it, I really want to hear.

 

[robbie1]

This should address all the 'bad' things the Vatican has done:

The Church is both divine and human, and in its human dimension, it is fragile and sinful. The Church is the light of the world, but often the evils of the world in which it lives become the maladies which attack the human dimension of the Church.

Today the Church is living in a world which has built up a new secular civilization. The spirit of this world, or secularism, which has entered into its interior, has caused the state of great suffering and of crisis in which the Church finds itself.

This is the famous "smoke of Satan" spoken of by Pope Paul VI.

This comes not from me, but from the Mother of God in her revelations to Father Gobbi of Italy.

 

[bored6]

Religion over the centuries has been directly responsible, or at the least, provided a means for:

- Countless deaths

- Imprisonments

- Needless suffering

- Torturing

- Genocide

- The oppression of people on grounds of sex, race, color, sexuality or belief

- The Crusades

- The Inquisition

- The Holocaust

- Witch trials in Europe and America

- Persecution of heretics - e.g. Galileo for daring to suggest that the earth orbits the sun

- Children dying because their parents refused them medical treatment on religious grounds; relying instead on faith healers and prayer

- Slavery, supported by scripture (slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, just as you would obey Christ. St.paul, Ephesians 6:5)

- Holy wars in the name of benevolent, loving and merciful gods

- The destruction of great works of art considered being pornographic/blasphemous, and the persecution of the artists

- Censorship of speech, art, books, music, films, poetry, songs and, if possible, thought

- Persecution of blasphemers

- Serial killers believing they are doing the work of Satan (or sometimes Jesus)

- Whole societies divided by minor differences in belief or doctrine, resulting in violence.

- Mass suicides of cult-members following a charismatic leader who believes the world is about to end

- The discouragement of rational, critical thought

- The spread of sexually transmitted diseases (e.g. aids) due to churches prohibiting the use of condoms.

- Suicide bombers taught to believe that martyrs go straight to paradise

- The indoctrination of children into the religion of their parents, giving them an arbitrary, life-long belief that is almost entirely dependent on their place of birth

- Women treated as second-class citizens or even slaves

- Hatred of gays and lesbians

- Abuse of power, authority and trust by religious leaders (for financial gain or sexual abuse of followers and even children)

- Cults stockpiling weapons to defend themselves from the armies of Satan (the police and gov).


...Not hard to see why people hate religon.

 

[robbie1]

You conviniently left out the attrocities committed by every communist regime, driven by atheistic principles.

 

[webby234]

Yes, but they weren't motivated by their atheism, they were motivated (at least on the surface) by Marxist ideology. While atheism is (arguably) an element of Marxism, it is not the driving force behind it.

 

[KFunk]

You conviniently left out the attrocities committed by every communist regime, driven by atheistic principles.

Not the best argument in the world ---> even if you can show that 'evils' have been commited in the name of atheism (hard to do given that it is essentially a value neutral position) you are still left with a choice between two 'evils'. Regardless of whether atheism manages to come out worse, religion can still come across as a negative, which ties in with the reasoning of those who end up hating religion. Shifting focus onto atheism is just a distraction. Still, I maintain that atheism is more or less value neutral and that you would be hard pressed to find 'atheistic principles' which can be used to justify evil acts. I think your best shot for making atheism out to be worse than religion would be to argue that it lacks the moral underpinnings of religion, leading to a 'net loss of good' .

 

[ur_inner_child]

Yes it is, because the idea of atheism held by such an authoritarian regime means that they set out to destroy all religion. Hence, no religion means misery. Misery is a human error, not a religious one.

You also cannot attack religion as a whole, because there are millions of people who have their own religion that is shared by no body but themselves.

Although I personally feel it unwise to rattle down events that were in the name of religion or "atheism", you can attack religion as a whole, as an institution as well as theory.

You can criticise religion because most religions share common traits: the worship supernatural being, a deity or higher order; the discourse that this religion is correct, the discourse of "us" and "them", the way it is constructed (for example, circulating around a text)

Having said this I for one, as an atheist, still find tremendous value in the existence of religion. Atheism is a non-belief in God. In fact I find it probably unwise for a "wipeout" of religion.

As for your no religion = misery

You cannot say "destruction of religion" = misery and that therefore "no religion" = misery

Because "no religion" does not equal to the "destruction of religion". You take an authoritarian regime as indicative of what equals what, well sorry, but last I heard, atheism is the non-belief of a God etc. Atheism does not necessarily mean it is out to get religion.

There is a major difference.

I think your best shot for making atheism out to be worse than religion would be to argue that it lacks the moral underpinnings of religion, leading to a 'net loss of good' .

I find that moral argument worse than the "atheism has done evils too" argument.

In fact it probably irks me a little more, if at all. To take it to extreme, I recall someone telling the NCAP community that atheists are more prone to being murderers, rapists etc and the they are completely devoid of morality. (Of course, I acknowledge that not all religious people feel that way) Even felt that humanist values were derived from religion.

 

[ur_inner_child]

Also, we come into these forums to discuss our views. This means that some of us will disagree with one another.

We critique and analyse each other's arguments, especially if there is a flaw in your oponnents views. If you cannot handle finding flaw within your argument, then you are not in discussive mode. This forum is not for people to freely assert their ideas and bite off the heads of people who do not agree with you.

 

[lengy]

You seem to think that atheism is directly tied to an attempt to obliterate misery, as well as alluding to the idea that religion promotes happiness. Wrong on both accounts. We, as humans, as animals, react to stimulation. As because of that, the experience is interpreted as positive, neutral or negative. If is a choice whether we choose to be positive or negative when faced with a stimulus. Some stimuli will more often generate negative reactions, and others the positive. We can also alter and sometimes delude ourselves to reacting differently to a stimulus that would generate a certain reaction into, sometimes, the opposite reaction depending on our state of mind and our ability to control it. Religion is nothing more than a way to delude ourselves, to create widespread ignorance as a way of escaping or altering our perceptions of certain stimuli. It all depends on how malleable your mental state is, and how far you are willing to let yourself be deluded, whether you are conscious of it or not.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I find that moral argument worse than the "atheism has done evils too" argument.

I agree with KFunk if only because the idea that atheism has any real principles that can lead to evils is silly. Atheism is at most the lack of certain principles.

 

[Calculon]

You conviniently left out the attrocities committed by every communist regime, driven by atheistic principles.

1. Atheism is not a unified church.
2. I'm agnostic and despise communism more than I despise religion.

 

[mr EaZy]

long time, we havent seen calculon on these boards, i thought u and withoutaface were one and the same?

 

[mr EaZy]

Yes, but they weren't motivated by their atheism, they were motivated (at least on the surface) by Marxist ideology. While atheism is (arguably) an element of Marxism, it is not the driving force behind it.

yes but the lack of religion was a driving force behind those attrocities

what is religion?
religion can be used to promote actions and deter actions- depends on what religion you wanna follow. in islam, you worship God and no other- but the interesting thing is that in islam we recognise that people worship all sorts of things: recently the world cup was described as a religion- thats true in islam as well, likewise with tv and the likes, so you have to ask, what are you devoting your lives to -what is the overriding usage of your life and that is your religion.

athieism is a religion and athiesm is an extremist position to take on the religion front (islamically anyway but i havent got the explanation with me); its totally one sided, as in some cases athiests are totally indifferent to people on sprectrums of spiritual and religious tendencies.

well thats what im ranting- im probably wrong in my expression of my thoughts

 

[webby234]

yes but the lack of religion was a driving force behind those attrocities

I disagree - I think that if they were religious they still would have committed the attrocities, just as we see in theocracies.

athieism is a religion

No it isn't - just taking the definition from wikipedia

Religion is a system of social coherence based on a common group of beliefs or attitudes concerning an object, person, unseen being, or system of thought considered to be supernatural, sacred, divine or highest truth, and the moral codes, practices, values, institutions, and rituals associated with such belief or system of thought.

and another definition

1. a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny
2. an institution to express belief in a divine power

 

[Not-That-Bright]

yes but the lack of religion was a driving force behind those attrocities

Lol no it wasn't... are you claiming the reason communists comitted 'attrocities' was because they didn't believe in God? We see no evidence that this is a driving force behind their ideas any more than their likes/dislikes when it comes to food.

 

[ur_inner_child]

Atheism is "I don't believe in a God"

not

"I don't believe in a God thus everyone who does should die"

athiesm is an extremist position to take on the religion front

What then is a moderate position to take on the religious front without believing in God?

 

[bshoc]

What then is a moderate position to take on the religious front without believing in God?

Agnosticism

 

[bshoc]

Lol no it wasn't... are you claiming the reason communists comitted 'attrocities' was because they didn't believe in God? We see no evidence that this is a driving force behind their ideas any more than their likes/dislikes when it comes to food.

Well its at least a little statistically signficant that all the worlds mass murderers and most of their followers were nonreligious, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot and so forth.

 

[HotShot]

Atheism is "I don't believe in a God"

not

"I don't believe in a God thus everyone who does should die"



What then is a moderate position to take on the religious front without believing in God?

no Athiesm is more like: "I dont belive in a GOD, and everyone who does MUST DIE".