USA: House passes $819 billion stimulus package with 0 GOP votes (1 Viewer)

[КГБ]

The House of Representatives late Wednesday passed President Barack Obama's $819 billion plan to stimulate the economy and curtail the nation's year-old recession.

The 244-188 vote proceeded along party lines as expected. Only 12 Democrats opposed the measure, and no Republicans supported it.

Senate committees have been working on a separate version of the measure. It is not clear how quickly the Senate version will be completed, passed, and reconciled with the House measure, but Congressional leaders have promised Mr. Obama they would send him a completed bill by mid-February.

The House vote came after days of intense lobbying by the new president, including personal appeals to congressional Republicans. GOP lawmakers spurned Obama, saying the bill contains too much spending and not enough tax cuts.

Republican critics say the bill was little more than the fulfillment of a long-standing Democratic wish-list. Those critics pointed to $1 billion for Amtrak, $41 billion for local school districts and $127 billion for health care for the poor and unemployed, reports CBS News chief White House correspondent Chip Reid.

Democrats argued that the bill was imperative with the economy in the worst shape since the Depression.

The lack of bipartisan support was a disappointment for Mr. Obama, Reid said, although the president put out a statement praising the bill's passage. White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs stressed that a lot can still change in the coming weeks, calling today's events the third inning of a nine-inning game, Reid reports.

hmmm..... thats umm...$1.6 trillion in a matter of 2 months. good going.

 

[Graney]

Wow, it really is the end of capitalism.

 

[Trefoil]

Now the Libertarians will never know how close the American (and World) economy was to collapse without a stimulus package and they can continue mindlessly ranting about the 'evils of government intervention'.

 

[withoutaface]

At least the GOP's hands are clean in this, for once.

 

[withoutaface]

Now the Libertarians will never know how close the American (and World) economy was to collapse without a stimulus package and they can continue mindlessly ranting about the 'evils of government intervention'.

Thanks for deducting reputation from this user.

 

[Enteebee]

collapse

lol and u guys think ACA is bad.

 

[Trefoil]

Thanks for deducting reputation from this user.

Do mixed markets and social democracies really offend you that much that you're bitter about this, waf?

Your absolute lack of a sense of social justice is chilling at times.

 

[withoutaface]

YOU CAN'T PRINT PROSPERITY k

Edit: I love the the GOP's main concern was a lack of tax cuts. The US government can't afford any tax cuts. It needs to slash government spending. Massively.

I love you so much.

Your absolute lack of a sense of social justice is chilling at times.

As is your lack of sense in general.

EDIT: $8,000 from every taxpayer for this bullshit.

 

[Riet]

If they give everyone a million dollars then everyone will be rich!

 

[withoutaface]

It will collapse. That is not an exaggeration.

At some point China and Japan will realise that the US can never pay back its debt with real economic goods. The only way it will repay its debt is by printing more and more increasingly worthless US dollars. Once they stop buying treasuries the game is up. Everything the US consumes will skyrocket in price as the dollar depreciate against Gold, Oil and the Euro, Yen ect.

At some point this will happen. The US can not simply consume what Asia produces and produce very little itself ad infinitum.

The Asians r coming to repossess Florida.

 

[withoutaface]

Need 9 Dems in the Senate to oppose this and it's sunk. Unlikely though

 

[Enteebee]

Once they stop buying treasuries the game is up.

The US is continually paying off its debts perfectly on time (unlike Russia, Argentia etc) and while it's true that more debt is being issued while it pays off these debts, it is not certain that the trend up will necessarily continue. At worst, I think what's more likely is that you'd have something like they had in japan. The reserve bank will buy treasury bonds from the government or anyone who holds them and you'll have a decline in US growth and price deflation.

I don't see this as economic collapse.

edit: Eh I basically agree with your second post.

 

[zstar]

The US is continually paying off its debts perfectly on time (unlike Russia, Argentia etc) and while it's true that more debt is being issued while it pays off these debts, it is not certain that the trend up will necessarily continue. At worst, I think what's more likely is that you'd have something like they had in japan. The reserve bank will buy treasury bonds from the government or anyone who holds them and you'll have a decline in US growth and price deflation.



I don't see this as economic collapse.



edit: Eh I basically agree with your second post.

Excuse me what?

America's debt is $60 trillion now.

Once foreigners stop buying treasuries the dollar will crash and hyperinflation will ensue.

 

[Enteebee]

lol yes it is a $60 trillion national debt, a record... No where near as high as a % of gdp as other nations, but nothing to shrug off. However, one of the few investments which would have made you money in 2008 was US Treasury bonds and the long-term government bond yields have hit all time lows: Government bond yields hit fresh lows - International Herald Tribune So I think this idea that people are worried about the US being able to service its debts isn't really backed up by the facts?

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

Thanks for deducting reputation from this user.

Thanks for deducting reputation from this user.

 

[Enteebee]

They are paying their debts on time (and will continue to) because instead of paying them off using revenue from taxation they simply create new money out of thin air.

What is the difference between paying something off with taxation or increasing the supply of money and devaluing the dollar (other than that the latter is in a sense a flat tax)?

Nothing is certain, but its pretty damn close. Debt is fine if you invest the borrowed funds in income producing assets. The US simply borrows money to consume, pissing it away on pointless wars while handing out huge tax cuts, bailouts and welfare payments.

Debt is also fine if you invest it to provide yourself with goods upfront which you can afford to have, but which you do not have the liquid capital to buy and instead need to make payments over time. The US can go ahead and buy its self whatever it wants (welfare, wars, etc) so long as its creditors believe it will service/pay off its debts.

Currently people think that the US's treasury bonds are a good, safe investment (unlike nearly everything else out there in this climate) and it would seem that looking into the future (at least the next 30 years) people also seem to feel that the US is likely to be capable of servicing its debt... otherwise I don't understand why Government bond yields are at record lows.

The factors of production have moved overseas and the US has become a service based economy where physical goods are imported and the moronic American populace stays happy because everyone has a job providing services for everyone else. The situation is totally unsustainable.

What is so unsustainable about a service based economy?

 

[withoutaface]

Chadd: It has thus far relied on niggahs from other countries being prepared to do the production side of things for much less than you'd have to pay workers locally.

 

[zstar]

I don't think many of you grasp how serious things actually are.

You see we don't use money that is backed up by anything except for confidence(i.e. fiat money)
The current deflation is a result of leverage and won't last forever however at this time cash is king so many will continue to finish trades in cash.

Now here comes the scary part, Hyperinflation is caused by first of an increase in money supply which productivity cannot keep up with.

So you think about what the U.S federal reserve is doing, In the midst of plummeting productivity they are trying to print copious amounts of cash in the trillions range in order to stave off deflation. Foreigners will not keep buying treasury bonds forever and once China and Japan figures out what to do with all the money they built up and realise that America will not pay back debt then you figure out the rest.

Once that happens it will be a chaotic situation in which only hard assets will be king.

 

[Enteebee]

Sigh.

Because the dollars the creditors are being paid back with are worse much less than the dollars they initially lent the US.

None of them care though because they're getting more value back by getting more dollars, the people who lose some of their value are the american citizens as they now have a lower % of the dollars.

True. But their entire economy rests on their creditors continuing to hold this belief. Once they realize they will never be repaid in terms of real goods the credit that the US depends upon will dry up.

I find this extremely doubtful... Under clinton growth of national debt managed to get down as low as 0.32%, the US is more than capable of cessating the increase in public debt but this isn't necessarily the best strategy. While you are right that the US merely spends its debt on consumption instead of investment, you'd be wrong in thinking that that's the end of the story as even if (as in your example) the government borrows $1 trillion to fight a pointless where, that $1 trillion is then paid to a whole heap of businesses, etc etc who will then use that money to invest in their businesses increasing the wealth of the economy at large.

This guy makes a decent argument that the US might be under-indebted: Learning To Love Debt - Articles - Financial Planning

A big part of it is that creditors, particularly China, want the US to keep buying their stuff and so they are wary about anything that could hurt the US economy.

The greatest part of it at the moment is that with the global financial crisis people are looking for a stable place to invest. China wants the US to keep buying their stuff because they are benefitting from it greatly... they are going where their best ROI lies and that is not their self.

I should clarify, nothing. If the country can export services. But an economy that consistently imports more than it produces and relies on service sector jobs and debt to run is not sustainable.

You can have debt and still be wealthy. Take for example car dealerships: Car dealerships are constantly in more debt (i.e. have more cars on their showroom floor) than they are exporting (i.e. selling) yet the people who own them are definitely wealthy enough and all the employees can be paid good sallaries etc.

 

[spiny norman]

At least the GOP's hands are clean in this, for once.

Clearly the party of sanity and moderation.