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"Communism is the greatest evil unleashed on humanity" (5 Viewers)

ASNSWR127

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bshoc said:
Generally speaking, the time for the potential socialist/communism revolution has long passed, the kind of highly labour intensive, demeaning industrial capitalism that existed in the late 19th and early 20th centuries simply doesn't exist anymore, it evolved into something else post-Great Depression, again post-WWII, and then again after the end of Breton Woods, into the modern mixed-economy hybrid we have today.

It's usually quite difficult to apply something if all its underlying assumptions no longer hold.
yes but that wasn't the statement involved...

and yes actually those sort of conditions do still exist... its called Africa and South America.

Plus it was not all about high intensity jobs but also about equality for all...

you have to take all of this into consideration.
 

bshoc

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ASNSWR127 said:
and yes actually those sort of conditions do still exist... its called Africa and South America.
The agrarian poor do not constitute a majority of "exploited industrial workers", nor do the rural-urban migrants who contribute largely as informal workers in the urban areas of said countries.

You wouldn't even be able to calculate Marx's exploitation ratio for most of these people because half the equation doesn't exist for them.

Plus it was not all about high intensity jobs but also about equality for all...
In Das Kapital, equality for all is not an aim in itself, but rather the result of the natural social progression. The very nature of capital itself has changed, in the developed world human capital itself is now the overriding form of capital through education, skill etc. rather than industrial plant. Most of Marx's "exploited" are now robots and automated assembly lines.

you have to take all of this into consideration.
And you should actually read some fundamentals of Marxism before you support it, most of it is in Marx's Das Kapital.


The largest problem with Marx's work is actually that he expands Smith and Ricardo to justify his own conclusions, aka. uses the labour theory of value, which has long since been discarded due to its internal inconsistencies in favour of marginalism and scarcity as the determinant of economic value.
 

Progressive

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You see in the end Communism is not the greatest evil unleashed on man, it is the complete opposite, Capitalism was the greatest evil unleashed on man. Hmm Communism is the greatest fear not evil unleashed, but not upon man, upon Capitalist. ......................................................Global Government International Socialism i can not wait for it can you, coming to a world near you.
 

tommykins

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You see in the end Communism is not the greatest evil unleashed on man, it is the complete opposite, Capitalism was the greatest evil unleashed on man. Hmm Communism is the greatest fear not evil unleashed, but not upon man, upon Capitalist. ......................................................Global Government International Socialism i can not wait for it can you, coming to a world near you.
sounds like an ad pepsi would do to pay out coca cola
 

tinfoilhat

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hey i never said communism was practical,
i still like the idea though
and that doesn't mean i dislike capitalism
 

sdent40

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hey i never said communism was practical,
i still like the idea though
and that doesn't mean i dislike capitalism
No, it's also a bad idea cos central planning is impossible. More accurately speaking, rational economic calculation is impossible under central planning. Google the socialist calculation problem for info on this.

Not only is communism bad in practice, it's also a terrible theory. I'm so tired of people saying "oh its a nice idea but it just didn't/couldn't work in the real world". Communism actually fails in the theoretical world too.
 

tinfoilhat

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boris: haha okay, how about i'm a left wing person that is okay with right wing ideals... if that makes it clearer?


sdent40: have you actually even read the theory?
you should also know that the stalinist state was centrally planned, so no it's not impossible


i'll be the first to admit that communism doesn't work and i wouldn't bother trying to make it work because the world works fine with capitalism
that doesn't mean i can't like communism or that i don't like communism
 

sdent40

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sdent40: have you actually even read the theory?
you should also know that the stalinist state was centrally planned, so no it's not impossible
I'm not saying it's impossible to centrally plan at all, I'm saying it's impossible to centrally plan and allocate resources in an efficient manner. As in, to use central planning is to waste resources and make people's lives poorer than they would otherwise be.
 

Nebuchanezzar

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How can *anyone* like Communism? Capitalism has been the system which has freed MILLIONS of people from poverty world wide.

I'm sorry, but social outcome wise Capitalism has trumped every single Communist state we've ever seen.

*insert wank here about OMG THAT WAS STATE CAPITALISM*.

Fuck off, you lost, deal with it.
capitalism plunged them into poverty to begin with though :confused:
 

Lex152

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@SDENT the distribution of resources is an ideological goal. The problem is when you put that in human hands it is manipulated AS SEEN UNDER BOTH SYSTEMS. Communism has the ability to address externalities that democracies don't because it can intimidate business (vice-versa in most democratic countries).

@Silver markets have plunged plenty of people into poverty, and capitalism is the blind belief in markets. I think the biggest contributer to bringing people out of poverty is science, not economics...
And following such logic brings you to that a centrally planned economy has more means to roll out new discoveries, however this has not been the practice.

The problem with capitalism is that 90% of the population spend 90% of their income on inter-day living, whilst 10% of the population spend 99% of their income further increasing their relative wealth...
 

sdent40

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you can see why one would be confused
You missed my sentence immediately after that where I clarified what I meant

Lex152 said:
@SDENT the distribution of resources is an ideological goal. The problem is when you put that in human hands it is manipulated AS SEEN UNDER BOTH SYSTEMS. Communism has the ability to address externalities that democracies don't because it can intimidate business (vice-versa in most democratic countries).
I fully acknowledge that democracy is a flawed system and support a change to anarchism.

Lex152 said:
The problem with capitalism is that 90% of the population spend 90% of their income on inter-day living, whilst 10% of the population spend 99% of their income further increasing their relative wealth...
I'm not sure you're understanding the point of the profit motive. The profit motive is used as a signal for businessmen to produce something that consumers value. The use of the profit motive also ensures that resources are not going to waste because when a venture loses money, that is an indication that resources are being destroyed (or at least could be better spent elsewhere), so it functions like a feedback mechanism. People who make money are encouraged to continue doing that, and people who are losing money are encouraged to find another avenue to attempt to profit.
 

georgefren

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In theory, they're both fine. In practise, you actually need a combination of both.

Communism is very hard to implement because of its need for market efficiency to be made centrally.

Capitalism (the pure following of market forces) ignores too many market externalities for it not to be tempered with the socialist ideas of welfare, central government regulation ect.
 
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@Silver markets have plunged plenty of people into poverty, and capitalism is the blind belief in markets. I think the biggest contributer to bringing people out of poverty is science, not economics...
I agree that capitalism has not successfully eliminated global poverty, and I'm sure we could have an interesting debate about whether free markets will eliminate poverty in the most effective way.

But capitalism didn't "create" the poverty in Africa, for instance. The poverty was already there, and capitalism merely hasn't fixed it.

Edit: And, of course, a significant proportion of third world poverty can be attributed to state mismanagement.
 

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