A Question of Christian Theology (5 Viewers)

[Random_dude]

Well this is leaning towards the contentious side and besides I don't know anything about your understanding so it's best to stick to basics so I guess I'll keep it simple...

You Lived with God

that might answer some of your questions, if you genuinely want to know. =)

oh yes simple, like a simplified model of an atom not sshowing everyhting. and nice evasions of the questions. you should be a politician.

now, what created god.

why is he in our image and was once like us if he is a complex being beyond our imaginings and thoughts and create atoms, particles out of nothing in the 'a lotness'.

Heavenly Father created us and sent us to earth so we can progress....

for what?

I believe that He was once just like us and we're created in His image.. in order for us to become like Him, we need to come to Earth, to live and learn and grow and be tested. It's all part of His plan for us =)

once again, how is a complex being of the highest magnitude in our image?
so he grew, let free to live, learn and grow just to judge us? im a christian, and i still don't believe this.

 

[sariah]

They're not evasions, I'm sorry if you think they are. I just don't feel comfortable talking about certain points of doctrine in this situation. There are many questions and many answers but the gospel is line upon line, one step at a time.

I guess somewhere to begin would be well, what do you believe? I've heard what you don't but what do you? (out of interest, and wanting to understand your views) =]

 

[Random_dude]

i do not think they are, they are.

i believe that god created the universe and then left it to its own devices, or the universe is god.

once again, i would like to understand how if a copmplex being of the highest magnitude chose us to have his image, would we not be formless?

why did god create us just to judge us? sounds a little bit sadistic if you ask me.
and is god a he? if he truly is a complex being, should he not be asexual, or a haemaphrodite?

 

[Serius]

This assumption isnt very logical, its like assuming 1 + 1 = 3. However for the sake of arguement, I will elaborate.

In the event of this "religion", human nature would force us to leave and abandon such a God. I think people will not believe, if we make the assumption that believing was of course their choice.

It would be funny if more people ended up beleiving though. Its a lot easier to stop believing in the easter bunny than it is in the boogieman

 

[dieburndie]

First i would like to start with the proper answer to this, and to answer this i think i need to tell you more then just the flat out answer otherwise noone will ever understand it.

God created the world, the created it with him as ruler and humans ruling it under him, this is not the way it is now.
We as humans have rejected Gods rule in our lives, and decided to rule it our selves, this rebellion is sin, and it is the reason why the world is in such a crappy state.

If something is evil and worthy of punishment, doesn't there have to be some element of choice in the matter?
If so, you are saying that every human has the choice to be a sinner or not, and all of them in the entirety of human history has chosen the path of sin- even devoted christians.

Your line of reasoning suggests to me that there is in fact no choice at all, and that humans are inherently sinners. If this is not the case, how can you (and your god) assume every human EVER has made the wrong choice?
If this IS the case, why are humans deserving of punishment for tendencies they evidently have no control over?

God decided he did not want the world to be like this and he was not going to let us keep going so as a punishment for our rebellion we all die, all must die then be judged he loves us enough as humans so he hold us accountable to our actions his justice is entirely just.

Isn't that punishment an overreaction?
If humans are meant to follow god's lead morally, should a father murder his daughter (or torture her indefinitely) for running away from home, for example?

God because of his love did not leave us to face the concequences of our rebellion and sent his son, who unlike us did not sin and never rebelled, so he did not deserve death and punishment like we all do, but he died, he died to take the punishment for our sins.

Hold on, that makes NO sense.
God is the one who created those consequences. He is then supposedly benevolent and merciful because he created a narrow path by which we may escape his own wrath?
If he is so compassionate, why not just stop condemning people to an enternity of brutal torture?

so ultimately he sends un-believers to hell because they have lived under rebellion with him without repentance, he is giving them the punishment which they ( and everyone) deserves. christians deserve this but God justice is carried out on the cross

You haven't established why everyone deserves this. As I said, if being a sinner is unavoidable, then humans are simply engaging in actions they have no control over. You actually believe that ALL humans deserve to die and spend eternity in hell, just for being humans.

You and your god are fucking crazy.

 

[sariah]

Random_dude, I'm not here to argue or persuade you, I'm came to say what I believe. If you believe something different, that's fine, we were all given free agency ie the freedom to choose for ourselves.

Just curious, have you looked at the links I gave you?

and yes I believe that Heavenly Father is a He, with a body. What do you believe in about the Godhead? (Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ & The Holy Spirit) Particularly about Jesus Christ?

 

[tommykins]

If we assume that God exists and that believers are now condemned to Hell whilst non-believers are sentenced to Heaven, would people still believe? They can say this 'hypothetical' makes no sense, but if we roll with their definition of 'God' we can simply say "It's the way God works, he isn't bounded by logic".


What you roll with, your definition of God, is a misrepresentation of God.
So yes, your hypothetical doesnt make sense. And so, your challenge to Christians doesnt make sense.

about dismissing christians: im not sure who specifically i am dismissing, but if you could elaborate. sadly it is also true that christians can say the wrong thing including yes. me.

Lol, hey mate - I'm just rolling with theists here. Alot of situations/questions has been raised about something that 'doesn't make sense' yet the response from theists (ie. Lukybear) is often 'OH GOD ISN'T CONFINED BY LOGIC, HE CAN DO WHAT HE WANTS CAUSE HES GOD'

Eeep... so many things to deal with.

Firstly, lets start with you Tommykins. (I have this great image of you standing at the back of an Audatorium yelling "ANSWER MY FRIGGIN QUESTION ALREADY"

That's an interesting idea. Kinda counter-intuitive. I guess though that in that situation, the people who knew about God would want to save as many people as possible by not letting knowledge of Gods existence spread. Like counter-evangelism. There is a verse in on of the Epistles (letters in the New Testament for those who didn't know), I can't remember off the top of my head right now which one. I'll dig it out a bit later. But Paul basically says that he would give up his own Salvation if it meant others could be saved. I think that would be the sort of mindset that would have taken hold. A "lets NOT spread this and doom humanity to an existence in hell" kind of image.

See above. The reason I ask isn't to 'disprove God's existence' but to eliminate possible reasons for those that believe in God not for truth but for convenience.

This assumption isnt very logical, its like assuming 1 + 1 = 3. However for the sake of arguement, I will elaborate.

Have a taste of your own medicine, you bring up the whole 'god isn't confined by logic' argument numerous times, so why are you trying to make sense of the scenario here?

In the event of this "religion", human nature would force us to leave and abandon such a God. I think people will not believe, if we make the assumption that believing was of course their choice.

Then we have reached a possibility that a handful of theists ONLY beleive out of their own benefit, not really looking for 'truth' even if the 'truth' is a 'bad' one

if you cared to read the thread i replied with an answer

i tend to ignore your posts, but i actually read your post and you didn't really answer it, if you did can you please quote it?

 

[Cookie182]

Respectfully, its the same yadda so far based on the "fall from grace"- a concept I fervently oppose, as it really undermines the whole "free will" spin which is promoted and essentially proves the totalitarian nature of the theistic paradigm...

Yet, back to the question. I don't wanna hear about why I should follow JC. I want to know, why, I need to live forever? Most Christians believe our soul has "memories" in the sense that our consciousness for the most part lives on. If it's my decision to rest, why can't I?

Please focus on the question at hand. So far I have heard "two lovebirds fooled around in a magical garden at the start of earth time and pissed god off. To this day, your born bearing the price of their actions unless you delude yourself that a random dude in the middle of the desert 2000 yrs ago died to save you from ""this"" (which is defined as?). Please, tell me you Christians have a more logical belief then that? Please...

I mean we have HARD EVIDENCE that we came into existence as homo sapiens
over a hundred thousand years ago, taking a separate evolutionary track from other primates, how does "adam and eve" fit in with this? Are other primates in a state of sin? Note, even the Catholic Church accepts this is true.

Also, you assume I CAN actually believe it- which I tell you now, I psychologically can not have that level of "faith". If your god did well create me, I blame him for this and for the general lack of evidence, yet I"M to be punished for it.

If I have "rebelled" and need to be seperated from god for eternity, what better way then to just not resurrect me at all? Once the electrical charges die off in my brain, black. Annihilation, like every other member of the animal kingdom.

Why is this not possible?

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

A common thread of questioning is (particularly to Protestants, not people who invent non-biblical dimensions like purgatory).

Atheist: Why does god send non-believers to hell and have them tortured for eternity?

Christian: Oh, he still loves you. He is all-loving and not cruel. It's his way of granting your wish- since you rejected him; he knows you don't want to spend eternity with him...

My question:

Why do I have to have an afterlife? I mean my dog and bird get to just die. And don’t say “because your made in his image”- I didn’t consent!!!!!!

Why is this at all necessary? I wasn't given a choice to be born- had I been, perhaps I might have declined given eternity is a while...

If the non-believer is content with no afterlife- why can't god grant them (in his all-loving character) the wish of just...dieing? It's dead simple.

I'd have to say the common Christian response holds the worst logic ever- so the "loving" god not only needs to lock you away from him (because you "choose it"- something I'd argue, having "faith" is impossible for many atheists!) but you need to also suffer torment. At this point I guess all you can do is laugh...

I know its all bs anyway, but I’d like to see a serious attempt from say Mcflystargirl or someone who actually preaches this cruelty.

What I understand is the answer to this question is this.

You don't get to ''consent'' to your creation. God is just, and he loves you, but it doesn't mean that he's democratic or cares what you think in that regard. Like an authoritarian parent I guess, he has non negotiable rules in his house but loves you unconditionally regardless (which is another point, that god isn't happy about sending people to hell, he still loves them but they've made their choice and he can't tolerate unrepentant sin, it isn't in his nature or something.) Anyhow, he's God. He can do what he wants. And this includes giving you an afterlife. Where you go is entirely up to you.

Also I'm pretty sure from the Christian point of view that sin, to God, is a way more serious matter than us mere mortals think it is. Which I guess makes the concept of hell (if indeed it is this fiery lake of doom) acceptable. It IS a just punishment that fits the crime (of not believing etc)So I guess in a weird way it kind of makes sense.

This is what I have gleaned from research about Christianity, but I've read a lot of conflicting viewpoints on what all of this stuff all actually means...some Christians don't think hell is a literal lake of fire, some appear to not believe in hell at all for some reason, some take the entire Bible literally, others are all about interpretation and figurative language and so on, some are in the middle. There are arguments over heaps of doctrinal things (the timing of the rapture for example...or if there will even be one). What I posted is what I think seems to be generally the accepted opinion about the issue.

So I think an interesting question (assuming Christianity is the real deal for a moment), is to work out who's version of events is actually accurate, and then we could answer your question again based on that

 

[kushna]

If I have "rebelled" and need to be seperated from god for eternity, what better way then to just not resurrect me at all? Once the electrical charges die off in my brain, black. Annihilation, like every other member of the animal kingdom

Expanding on this, what does God have to gain from punishment? He is perfect, he completes himself, and therefore needs nothing we can give him. So why punish people for doing something he himself created?

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

Expanding on this, what does God have to gain from punishment? He is perfect, he completes himself, and therefore needs nothing we can give him. So why punish people for doing something he himself created?

yeah I have wondered this too

I think Christians would probably say you're thinking about God the wrong way; that God doesn't have anything ''to gain'' from punishment but that nonetheless due to the nature of God and the way he abhors sin in his prescence, and also due to him being just but not necessarily nice, hell is a justifiable consequence of unrepentant sin.

I also think that since God is meant to be absolutely perfect that ideas about him having human desires like ''to gain'' things from situations probably don't apply

idk

someone who knows more about this stuff should answer really but that's what I reckon most of them would say

 

[tommykins]

yeah it sounds abit bitter, the whole 'YOU GOTTA LOVE ME OR____'

 

[ad infinitum]

I think it is pretty obvious that once you actually start thinking about these things they dissolve into the absurd or straight up immoral, i.e Vicarious redemption though child sacrifice.

 

[micuzzo]

ccb reading this thread however i think this needs to be said

what i believe:

'For God so loved the world that he gave us his only begotten son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.'

IE: this can be explained with this verse 'Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. No one can go to the Father except through Him.'

 

[Random_dude]

Random_dude, I'm not here to argue or persuade you, I'm came to say what I believe. If you believe something different, that's fine, we were all given free agency ie the freedom to choose for ourselves.

Just curious, have you looked at the links I gave you?

and yes I believe that Heavenly Father is a He, with a body. What do you believe in about the Godhead? (Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ & The Holy Spirit) Particularly about Jesus Christ?

actually, i have. but they instead of answering, bring up many critical questions like what i just asked beforehand.

a complex being can have many forms, and as such, can split into three forms, change into three forms, but still they are all god but just in a different forms.

 

[aequrico]

so, there are a lot of different questions, but before i try answer some questions just to clarify, im not from the church of latter day saints, who are mormon

i dont really necessarily agree with stuff sariah says, so.. just to make sure thats clear, our answers are not continuous.

dont mean to offend you sariah,

 

[aequrico]

ill try go one at a time


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teclis, come back here! haha, this thing is giant. (imo i reckon koukl isnt that bad, and at least he is alot better than me, but thats cool, hes not the real issue here),

anyway i get what your saying about omnipotence too, that helps i think.

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tommykins

"The reason I ask isn't to 'disprove God's existence' but to eliminate possible reasons for those that believe in God not for truth but for convenience."


so is your question maybe: do christians believe in god because it is convenient?

could you clarify what you mean by convenient?

"Then we have reached a possibility that a handful of theists ONLY beleive out of their own benefit, not really looking for 'truth' even if the 'truth' is a 'bad' one"


i'm gonna guess base don this that by convenience you mean: are christians only believing because of the fear of hell? do they only believe because they want to benefit out of this belief, is it a selfish belief? correct me if im wrong

"Have a taste of your own medicine, you bring up the whole 'god isn't confined by logic' argument numerous times, so why are you trying to make sense of the scenario here?"

hope this helps, but even if god isnt confined by logic it does not mean he is illogical. i guess the other thing is, even if god isn't confined by logic, we humans can still discuss things logically as far as we can hope to explain things.

with regard to him saying that your assumption is illogical. i think hes right. and just because somewhere at some point in time some christian said that "god is beyond logic"doesnt mean you can then create illogical hypotheticals and assume that they are now logical with regard to any topic. i think you are generalising.

there are some issues i think which we might never be able to explain away. and some which take alot of time to understand, and are hard for us to understand.

but that doesnt mean everything about god is illogical, or that any topic related to christianity can be illogical and therefore you can form a premise based on an illogical hypothetical situation.

---

 

[tommykins]

so is your question maybe: do christians believe in god because it is convenient?

could you clarify what you mean by convenient?



i'm gonna guess base don this that by convenience you mean: are christians only believing because of the fear of hell? do they only believe because they want to benefit out of this belief, is it a selfish belief? correct me if im wrong

bingo

hope this helps, but even if god isnt confined by logic it does not mean he is illogical. i guess the other thing is, even if god isn't confined by logic, we humans can still discuss things logically as far as we can hope to explain things.

it seems as though thesists are often 'selective' as to what they attribute as 'god's logic' when 'our logic' proves them wrong.

with regard to him saying that your assumption is illogical. i think hes right. and just because somewhere at some point in time some christian said that "god is beyond logic"doesnt mean you can then create illogical hypotheticals and assume that they are now logical with regard to any topic. i think you are generalising.

there are some issues i think which we might never be able to explain away. and some which take alot of time to understand, and are hard for us to understand.

but that doesnt mean everything about god is illogical, or that any topic related to christianity can be illogical and therefore you can form a premise based on an illogical hypothetical situation.

never was meant to make any kind of point but more so put food for thought over the reasons for belief.

 

[aequrico]

random_dude

"once again, i would like to understand how if a copmplex being of the highest magnitude chose us to have his image, would we not be formless?

why did god create us just to judge us? sounds a little bit sadistic if you ask me.
and is god a he? if he truly is a complex being, should he not be asexual, or a haemaphrodite?"

---

why should we be formless? what makes you say a formless thing is a complex thing? or further what makes you say a complex being must be asexual or a haemaphrodite? strictly speaking we are the most complex organisms around, whereas amoeba (formless, relatively, and asexual are not), another thing is haemaphrodites result essentially from a process of developmental error,

is god a he? what does it mean to be created in gods image?
he is referred to as a father, and a Lord throughout the bible, but they are representations of him not visually but relationally.

similarly in genesis when we are created in gods image, i think the main focus is on what God does (create the world, rule the world, establish order), genesis never describes God as roughly human with 2 legs 2 arms or any other animal and then say we are created in his image, God is described through the ordered manner in which he creates the world and importantly the nature of what he establishes (good) and the rule he establishes for man '

Genesis 1":27 "let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth and over all the creatures that move along the ground".

its a big question, what does it mean to be created in his image, and i can only hope to answer part of it.

 

[aequrico]

hey cookie,

"why should i need to live forever?"


one reason i mentioned before is justice.

i believe in moral crimes,
i believe that i have committed many moral crimes,
i also believe in justice.

i think its safe to say that the above 3 points are fairly universal, though not completely.

What is justice but that people who are guilty get punished in an appropriate way to their guilt? people who are guilty should pay for their crimes unless they have been pardoned. if you were just not resurrected, how would there be any justice to you? you wouldnt even be there to be given justice to. you would have no consciousness to be punished.

belief in a god who will judge justly and give what all people deserve for their moral crimes, is part of why we need to live "forever". i will probably end up mentionin this again later, but god is not just a god who judges justly but a god who loves infinitely, those two concepts are quite hard to unify, but jesus manages to do both. topic for another question.

adam and eve and evolution are not necessarily contradictory (this is contentious), but i reckon there is no reason why god cannot use the elegant system of evolution to bring about adam and eve, or moses who wrote the story while divinely inspired,

with regards to evolution, we do have evidence, but before you say it is "hard evidence", perhaps you could show me said evidence, because in my understanding it is oversimplified (darwin's theory) and that does not mean its wrong, by no means! i study medicine, almost everything i study (bacteria) relates to it, all i mean to say is, unless you can explain to me what that hard evidence actually is, it is a theory! some friends of me who completed science degrees in essence said that evolution is more complex than it alwys seems to be protrayed as, like all science, and while very much accepted, im not sure if it is 100% truth, real story, full proof-100% autobiographical etc. but feel free to pm me a detailed explanation, i dont know if its gonna just overload here.

Also, you assume I CAN actually believe it- which I tell you now, I psychologically can not have that level of "faith". If your god did well create me, I blame him for this and for the general lack of evidence, yet I"M to be punished for it.

it is written throughout the bible, and in fact it is the story of the bible almost,

but every single time god reveals himself to his people, adam and eve speak to god but they reject him. the israelites after moses saved them with gods help, create a gold calf, literally in the desert not long after theyve been rescued from slavery. massively religious jews who "loved" god KILLED jesus. his own people, demanded Jesus be killed instead of a murderer.


it is a hard thing, or rather jesus is a contentious issue, people say hes all about love, but people killed him, why would people kill him if he was just about love,

i guess i just wanted to say that believing and become a christian is by no means an easy thing and i feel in many ways the same way. i think if you dont mind me saying, i can sympathise.

sorry for the spiel.

but this is where it in my opinion gets pretty cool. what is impossible with man, is possible with god. i can expand on this later i guess.

"If your god did well create me, I blame him for this and for the general lack of evidence, yet I"M to be punished for it."

theres a story in the bible about a rich man who gets sent to hell, while hes in hell, he blames god for not giving him enough evidence, and tells God to send lazarus, a poor man who he did not pity while in real life, back to his brothers to tell them the reality, the truth. however god basically responds by saying even if i sent someone back from the dead, even if i resurrected someone they would not believe if they did not believe moses. (the rich guy is jewish). i guess i should explain, what god is saying is that if he did resurrect lazarus and sent him back to say hey to the rich guys bros, even if the rich guys did believe, which is possible, it would be belief out of fear, oh man hes real, where do i sign? what do i do?, which doesnt change your heart, more often than not it leads to worries about performance for god, and anger towards him for putting that pressure there, there is no transformation of your heart towards god because of what god did with moses for the jews/jesus for us.

if you want to find out whether or not the Christian God is the real thing, and you want to search for it, i for one, would love to try and help,

but if you just ignore him, im not sure how much you can blame him tbh, but if this helps, theres another dude in the bible who meets jesus, and asks jesus, can you help me with my doubt? and jesus says yes!