Why do people look down on UTS business so much? (2 Viewers)

[Johno23]

That's all good and well but I think the overarching message here is to not rely on prestige as a free pass into a job. You'll find that many students have the mentality that if they go to University X, then they just have to maintain decent grades to get a job. Unfortunately, students who go to "lesser" universities have figured this out, so they make themselves more marketable by doing extracurricular activities and the like.

No one here has mentioned anything even remotely close to 'relying on prestige as the be all and end all' on the way to getting a job. But it would be disingenuous to tell someone that no consideration should be given to a universities prestige. Remember, prestige didn't come out of thing air, universities earned it. Don't compare a GPA of 7 at UWS to a GPA of 7 at UNSW, the latter is a world of difference harder, hence why an employer would and should have more respect for the latter. When a person completes their degree, there are a list of criteria which are responsible for your ability to land a good job. These include your marks, your university, your extracurricular activities and your interview skills. Why not maximise your chances as much as humanely possible? It does the individual a disservice to not think about these factors from the get-go.

 

[brent012]

The reason I want to to go to UTS is coz they give you 1 yr work experience....UNSW does...but i fink its 60 days or somthing....

+ UTS is morre pratical.....which one should i pick that will help me gettin a job too....? (Engineering)

They dont "give you" 1 year work experience at UTS Engineering. If you are in the course with the Diploma in Eng Practise (which you will be) you will have two internships but you have to find them yourself pretty much, there is an online service provided by the uni with companies who need interns BUT from what i've heard all the good internship go to people who cold call companies. ALL universities require you to do atleast 60 days of work experience to graduate from an accredited Engineering course. I believe UNSW just recently added a general diploma kind of like the one at UTS for engineering and IT but generic and optional.

On topic, what makes you think people look down on UTS business? It's cutoff is FAR higher than Macqs and UTS and Usyd are the only unis in NSW with AACSB accreditation. I wouldn't be surprised though if some people are hesitant because UTS has a Bachelor of Business rather than Commerce (i personally thought it was inferior in some way initially until i looked into it)

 

[Trebla]

From my experience, many students I've met in interviews/assessment centres are from either USYD, UNSW, Macq or UTS anyway. However, a large portion (around half or more) are from UNSW and USYD so I can see where the whole "do employers choose prestigous universities" idea comes from, but correlation does NOT imply causation.

The candidates selected are based on their individual merits and a large number happen to be from UNSW or USYD. Anyone from UTS or Macq could easily be in the same position if his or her individual merits are strong enough (I commonly encounter some amazing people from those universities in assessment centres), its just that there aren't as many.

This could be attributed to the size (in terms of student volume) of UNSW/USYD compared to UTS/Macq or perhaps the culture of extracurricular participation (I have some anecdotal evidence from friends who have transferred and say the big two have much stronger student society cultures than others...but obviously this can be biased since they transferred into the big two from other universities) or even just the average calibre of candidates themseleves (it is common knowledge that the majority of 'stronger' candidates end up at UNSW or USYD in the first place). However, there is no reason that anyone from another university cannot achieve the same because the opportunities are there.

In a way it's somewhat analogous to the whole idea that it doesn't matter what school you go to in terms of HSC results. There is no reason why someone from a low ranked school can't get a 99.95 ATAR (and beat most of the Ruse kids in the process) if the opportunities are there to achieve it. However, the differences we observe in reality are often due to external factors such as the fact that a school like Ruse gets the cream of the crop in the first place compared to others, not the school brand alone. In other words, simply going to Ruse doesn't increase the probability that you will get a 99+ ATAR, you gotta work for it.

A similar way of thinking can be applied to potentially explain why UNSW and USYD often get larger numbers in recruitment. Simply being a student in either does not increase the chance that you will get employed. It comes down to your own efforts in doing well academically and being active in extracurriculars that will determine how employable you are. It just so happens that many who choose to put in this kind of effort are from UNSW and USYD.

Also, if you have any intention of getting into commerce related positions (other than accounting), generally the recruiters hardly care about what degree you do let alone what uni you went to. In the end it often comes down to your resume and interview technique anyway because they can easily train you up on any technical stuff you need to know.

 

[Newbie]

From my experience, many students I've met in interviews/assessment centres are from either USYD, UNSW, Macq or UTS anyway. However, a large portion (around half or more) are from UNSW and USYD so I can see where the whole "do employers choose prestigous universities" idea comes from, but correlation does NOT imply causation.

The candidates selected are based on their individual merits and a large number happen to be from UNSW or USYD. Anyone from UTS or Macq could easily be in the same position if his or her individual merits are strong enough (I commonly encounter some amazing people from those universities in assessment centres), its just that there aren't as many.

This could be attributed to the size (in terms of student volume) of UNSW/USYD compared to UTS/Macq or perhaps the culture of extracurricular participation (I have some anecdotal evidence from friends who have transferred and say the big two have much stronger student society cultures than others...but obviously this can be biased since they transferred into the big two from other universities) or even just the average calibre of candidates themseleves (it is common knowledge that the majority of 'stronger' candidates end up at UNSW or USYD in the first place). However, there is no reason that anyone from another university cannot achieve the same because the opportunities are there.

In a way it's somewhat analogous to the whole idea that it doesn't matter what school you go to in terms of HSC results. There is no reason why someone from a low ranked school can't get a 99.95 ATAR (and beat most of the Ruse kids in the process) if the opportunities are there to achieve it. However, the differences we observe in reality are often due to external factors such as the fact that a school like Ruse gets the cream of the crop in the first place compared to others, not the school brand alone. In other words, simply going to Ruse doesn't increase the probability that you will get a 99+ ATAR, you gotta work for it.

A similar way of thinking can be applied to potentially explain why UNSW and USYD often get larger numbers in recruitment. Simply being a student in either does not increase the chance that you will get employed. It comes down to your own efforts in doing well academically and being active in extracurriculars that will determine how employable you are. It just so happens that many who choose to put in this kind of effort are from UNSW and USYD.

Also, if you have any intention of getting into commerce related positions (other than accounting), generally the recruiters hardly care about what degree you do let alone what uni you went to. In the end it often comes down to your resume and interview technique anyway because they can easily train you up on any technical stuff you need to know.

makes sense but not exactly. what you are missing here is the hundreds who dont get invited to the interviews/assessment centers because of the university they go to. a computer program filters them out.

 

[mirakon]

makes sense but not exactly. what you are missing here is the hundreds who dont get invited to the interviews/assessment centers because of the university they go to. a computer program filters them out.

?

Source?

 

[Newbie]

?

Source?

me. the company i work for recruits from a target list of maybe 30 universities globally. our recruiting teams are sorted by university so its pretty clear thats how they filter things
pretty snobby but what can you do right - play the game.


and also read this and the first comment on the article as well. basically two guys talk about what we are talking about - who do you want to believe, the guy whos done the recruiting or the student.

http://news.efinancialcareers.com/53928/which-university-is-best-for-breaking-into-banking/


maybe as someone said, this only applies to banking (it doesnt ) but the advice you all should be giving to a high school student should be - select the course you want to do or have an interest in but take the best uni offer out there that will improve your employment options and chances.

 

[U MAD BRO]

My cousin graduated from uts this year but she couldn't get a job. She did engineering.
does that have anything to do with uts? or is it because my cousin is lazy etc...?

 

[Azure]

me. the company i work for recruits from a target list of maybe 30 universities globally. our recruiting teams are sorted by university so its pretty clear thats how they filter things
pretty snobby but what can you do right - play the game.


and also read this and the first comment on the article as well. basically two guys talk about what we are talking about - who do you want to believe, the guy whos done the recruiting or the student.

http://news.efinancialcareers.com/53928/which-university-is-best-for-breaking-into-banking/


maybe as someone said, this only applies to banking (it doesnt ) but the advice you all should be giving to a high school student should be - select the course you want to do or have an interest in but take the best uni offer out there that will improve your employment options and chances.

Do you have a source that is directly applicable to Australia (perhaps something that actually discusses Australian universities as opposed to Cambridge and Oxford)?

In addition to this, it is no secret that the super competitive finance roles are often snobby in the way they recruit students and often prefer to recruit from a select few universities. I don't think anybody has said otherwise. My point is that this is by no means a general reflective of the commerce world. I have yet to see any real evidence that suggests anything to the contrary.

My cousin graduated from uts this year but she couldn't get a job. She did engineering.
does that have anything to do with uts? or is it because my cousin is lazy etc...?

Nobody is able to offer a valid reason because nobody here is aware of your cousins individual situation. Are you cousins grades decent? Was their resume impressive? Did they market themselves properly to employers? Did they apply to many firms, or a select few? All questions that only your cousin can answer.

 

[U MAD BRO]

Nobody is able to offer a valid reason because nobody here is aware of your cousins individual situation. Are you cousins grades decent? Was their resume impressive? Did they market themselves properly to employers? Did they apply to many firms, or a select few? All questions that only your cousin can answer.

You're right.

 

[Newbie]

ok well sydney banking has official "filters"

big 6 law firms have unofficial "filters" and then most survivors dont make it past interviews, is it still done via CVmail?

the big3 consulting firms have even higher prejudices compared to banking

also, a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, i interned at pwc and kpmg sydney - i dont recall anyone from say Notre Dam for example at the interviews and definately noone that actually got the internship. similarly dont recall anyone from UWS. who knows maybe people from there dont apply to big 4? i recall the KPMG winter one being ultra competitive - only them and deloitte had a winter one going that year and it was definitely UNSW/USYD closed door gangbang


the point is - even if this practice is limited to the more snobby jobs, why would you ever limit yourself if you had the option to go to "better" university.
everyone keeps talking about individual merits blah blah blah, no sht thats the most important thing. UNSW commerce is half filled with dropkicks that want to chill on the quad lawn all day (i was one of them). but I stood a better shot at employment because i was at UNSW compared to UWS (sorry UWS).

Let me give you a personal statistic. My final wam was 63 (hahaha). im pretty realistic - do you think i would get a job if i didnt go to somewhere like UNSW?

 

[enoilgam]

big 6 law firms have unofficial "filters" and then most survivors dont make it past interviews, is it still done via CVmail?

I dont know where you're getting your information from on this, but my mother works for a top 6 law firm and I have spoken to the lawyer in charge of recruitment and she told me point blank that they dont look at a graduates uni when hiring. She made it clear that they are interested in marks and in particular extra-cirricular activities (for some reason sports stuff goes over well with them). Now you have said "unofficial" filters, but a close family friend of ours worked for this firm and he was a graduate of Macquarie Uni.

Look, obviously some employers look at university, but I dont think its as significant as people make out, nor is it as important as it is in the US or Korea. Also, as trebla has stated, you see many graduates from UNSW and USyd mainly because most of the top students attend these unis. Another factor to consider is that these two unis are the biggest - you have probably not seen Notre Dame graduates because they are a rarity (there are maybe 30 or 40 ND graduates majoring in accounting and finance each year, compared to probably hundreds at Usyd and UNSW).

Another thing I think most of us are ignoring is the long term impact of prestige. Realistically, once you have been in an industry for several years, employers could care less where you went to uni. Relatives of mine went to unis like UTS and UoW for commerce and all of them have high paying jobs at prestige firms. My uncle who went to UoW is actively headhunted by major companies like Comm Bank - recruiters could care less that he went to a lesser uni, because he is extremely successful in his chosen field.

So to summarise, whilst I think it is a factor in some situations, its nowhere near the extent that people make out (i.e. like the joke "UWS graduates head straight from graduation to centrelink").

 

[mirakon]

me. the company i work for recruits from a target list of maybe 30 universities globally. our recruiting teams are sorted by university so its pretty clear thats how they filter things
pretty snobby but what can you do right - play the game.


and also read this and the first comment on the article as well. basically two guys talk about what we are talking about - who do you want to believe, the guy whos done the recruiting or the student.

http://news.efinancialcareers.com/53928/which-university-is-best-for-breaking-into-banking/


maybe as someone said, this only applies to banking (it doesnt ) but the advice you all should be giving to a high school student should be - select the course you want to do or have an interest in but take the best uni offer out there that will improve your employment options and chances.

But is there any evidence that this is a general trend? How do you know it isn't just a few companies here and there?

 

[enoilgam]

But is there any evidence that this is a general trend? How do you know it isn't just a few companies here and there?

To be honest, most of the evidence is more or less a post hoc ergo propter hoc argument. "All the graduates I have seen went to Usyd and UNSW, therefore firms must be biased towards these unis" - as Trebla stated, correlation does NOT imply causation. Like Azure, I am yet to see strong evidence to suggest that this "bias" is a significant as people make it out to be.

 

[Newbie]

I dont know where you're getting your information from on this, but my mother works for a top 6 law firm and I have spoken to the lawyer in charge of recruitment and she told me point blank that they dont look at a graduates uni when hiring. She made it clear that they are interested in marks and in particular extra-cirricular activities (for some reason sports stuff goes over well with them). Now you have said "unofficial" filters, but a close family friend of ours worked for this firm and he was a graduate of Macquarie Uni.

Look, obviously some employers look at university, but I dont think its as significant as people make out, nor is it as important as it is in the US or Korea. Also, as trebla has stated, you see many graduates from UNSW and USyd mainly because most of the top students attend these unis. Another factor to consider is that these two unis are the biggest - you have probably not seen Notre Dame graduates because they are a rarity (there are maybe 30 or 40 ND graduates majoring in accounting and finance each year, compared to probably hundreds at Usyd and UNSW).

Another thing I think most of us are ignoring is the long term impact of prestige. Realistically, once you have been in an industry for several years, employers could care less where you went to uni. Relatives of mine went to unis like UTS and UoW for commerce and all of them have high paying jobs at prestige firms. My uncle who went to UoW is actively headhunted by major companies like Comm Bank - recruiters could care less that he went to a lesser uni, because he is extremely successful in his chosen field.

So to summarise, whilst I think it is a factor in some situations, its nowhere near the extent that people make out (i.e. like the joke "UWS graduates head straight from graduation to centrelink").

i think macq is ok for big 6 law. Notre Dam - maybe not sorry man but lets be realistic. also please dont listen to anything HR tells you. they dont do the hiring, they fill in paperwork.

 

[enoilgam]

i think macq is ok for big 6 law. Notre Dam - maybe not sorry man but lets be realistic. also please dont listen to anything HR tells you. they dont do the hiring, they fill in paperwork.

She isnt HR, she is the lawyer who does the recruiting. Besides, Notre Dame doesnt do too bad in the employment department - 80% of business graduates find employment in their chosen field in the year prior to their graduation (note, this figure includes people who continue with study post graduation). Now these figures might not be as good as USyd or UNSW, but I would attribute that mainly to the fact that Usyd and UNSW graduates are probably of a higher calibre.

 

[mirakon]

I personally know a uws law graduate who is making an absolute killing along with her husband who is also doing incredibly well and is a uts graduate. Husband's brother is a macq law graduate and is beyond rich. None of these people would be in this position if your "filter" system applied

 

[mirakon]

I mean perhaps there is a filter in some companies and of course your first hand experience has shown this as true, however I am not sure you can extrapolate it to encompass most companies

 

[Newbie]

To be honest, most of the evidence is more or less a post hoc ergo propter hoc argument. "All the graduates I have seen went to Usyd and UNSW, therefore firms must be biased towards these unis" - as Trebla stated, correlation does NOT imply causation. Like Azure, I am yet to see strong evidence to suggest that this "bias" is a significant as people make it out to be.

yes thats probably true (good wikipedia skills btw lol). so yes only snobby banking and managment consulting jobs do these "prestige filters" - is the advice to someone graduating stil to take the best uni offer out there? yes.

 

[enoilgam]

yes thats probably true (good wikipedia skills btw lol). so yes only snobby banking and managment consulting jobs do these "prestige filters" - is the advice to someone graduating stil to take the best uni offer out there? yes.

There are other factors beyond "prestige" which people consider when choosing their university. These can include:

- Social side of university: Many people attend uni for the social aspect and some people prefer the social life at one uni over another. I know this doesnt seem important in getting a career, but if you are happy and enjoying uni, this makes it much easier to do well, which will help you get a job.
- Specific aspects of the degree: Some degrees at "lesser" unis have advantages over their prestige counterparts (i.e. education degrees at ND and ACU gives you greater access to the catholic education system, a UWS undergrad medical degree is quicker then the undergrad program at Usyd)

Fyi, ND was not my second choice (well Med was my first choice, but after that). I chose ND over MQ for law and I was prepared to select it over any university in the state. I carefully considered all the factors and I thought the uni was a far better fit for me. This factor to me outweighed any possible advantage of the "prestige factor". Now, I might have made a mistake, but personally, I dont see myself thinking in 20 or 30 years time "damn, should have tried for a more prestigous uni".

EDIT: I got that phrase from a unit of philosophy I did at uni.

 

[kaz1]

Just wondering, cause I might want to do this course
Is it because companies don't consider it as prestigious or its lack of job prospects compared to other uni's such as UNSW, Usyd, Macq

It's lack of being an actual uni.