Zelenski and Trump debate :0 (1 Viewer)

SylviaB

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the biggest historical analogy to the 1930s and today is that countries like the UK destroyed their defence forces and are now acting tough towards a much more powerful power, but have no hope of coming out alive unless the US rescues them
 

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Notice how nobody freaking out over Trump not being a complete doormat...never actually provide a coherent explanation on how Ukraine can possibly win?

Some of them are literally delusional enough to believe Ukraine is going to militarily defeat Russia.

Others have some vague, wishful belief that Russia is going to internally "collapse", that Putin is going to be overthrown, or otherwise it will give up and go home. Of course, the people saying this stuff have a perfect 0% prediction record on the Ukraine war and Russia to date and were all predicting that Putin would have been gone years ago. But somehow, we're meant to treat their current predictions as valid?
i do think its interesting that there's a belief that Putin will be overthrown (at least going off what uve said) when it seems unlikely to me... I think there are really only three ends to the war
1. ukraine completely collapses and Russia annexes all of it
2. Ukraine accepts a deal with russia (probably that they keep all the land theyre occupying)
or very unlikely 3. ukraine is somehow able to stage an offensive to regain most of their territory ;;;; and so THEY start looking to sign a deal
 

Socialism

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i do think its interesting that there's a belief that Putin will be overthrown (at least going off what uve said) when it seems unlikely to me... I think there are really only three ends to the war
1. ukraine completely collapses and Russia annexes all of it
2. Ukraine accepts a deal with russia (probably that they keep all the land theyre occupying)
or very unlikely 3. ukraine is somehow able to stage an offensive to regain most of their territory ;;;; and so THEY start looking to sign a deal
saying all that, like i said before its definitely a waiting game
 

ellurbee

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I'm sorry i found this quote that Zelenski said and it rlly resonated with me lmao:
"Mr trump- you are increasing the volume of your voice, but not the logic of your argument."
SILENCED-
 

SylviaB

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I'm sorry i found this quote that Zelenski said and it rlly resonated with me lmao:
"Mr trump- you are increasing the volume of your voice, but not the logic of your argument."
SILENCED-
Genius from Zelenskyy, insulting the guy who you depend on for your continued existence
 

ellurbee

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I just got a notification from the news saying that The White House is pausing aid to Ukraine after the conflict between Trump and Zelenskyy-
 

enoilgam

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Consider the absurdity of this all - abandoning the US dollar because they're not anti-Russia enough, and doing so by supporting.....brazil-RUSSIA-india-china-south africa bucks.
It wont happen overnight like a "piss off US we are doing business in Chinese currency". It will be gradual, at first it will be Indian and China starting doing business in Chinese currency. Then in 4 years time, maybe China does a deal with a more, Western Sympathetic country (maybe Turkey etc) for trade. At that time, instead of the world coming down on it, something like this will be met with a collective meh. It will be gradual.

People are keen to portray things this way because of their intense, burning hatred for Donald Trump and any US leader who doesn't put US interests last....but what are Europe or anyone else going to do?
What Im talking about is more long term then what you have listed (i.e. reserve currency amongst others). Also, countries dont have to necessarily side with China or Russia, but where once there was support for the US, there might just be a sigh of neutrality.

the biggest historical analogy to the 1930s and today is that countries like the UK destroyed their defence forces and are now acting tough towards a much more powerful power, but have no hope of coming out alive unless the US rescues them
I loathe the comparisons between Trump and Hitler - two very different things if you understand history. On the topic of a war between Western nations and Eastern bloc nations, what Western militaries lack in size they make up for in skill and wouldn't underestimate them. The Chinese and Russian armies still operate on outdated doctrines of command and control. In contrast, most Western armies utilise "Mission Command" tactics (as derived ironically from the Nazi Auftragstaktik), which means their forces are trained to take battlefield initiative. This is why Russia struggled so much at the outset against Ukraine because they are using outdated doctrines. Ive worked with many ex-ADF staff over the years and let me tell you generally speaking they are brilliant performers. Contrast this to ex-Police (who are led by command and control) who are often far less capable (working with ex-police is a nightmare for this reason).
 

SylviaB

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It will be gradual, at first it will be Indian and China starting doing business in Chinese currency.
Completely irrelevant - India doesn't care about Ukraine and is buying tens of billions of dollars worth of oil from Russia.

Then in 4 years time, maybe China does a deal with a more, Western Sympathetic country (maybe Turkey etc) for trade. At that time, instead of the world coming down on it, something like this will be met with a collective meh. It will be gradual.
Turkey has europe by the balls already. They would and could do this now without anyone coming down on them.

What Im talking about is more long term then what you have listed (i.e. reserve currency amongst others). Also, countries dont have to necessarily side with China or Russia, but where once there was support for the US, there might just be a sigh of neutrality.
Then these Europeans are morons. In any other context, not being anti-russia is the same as being pro-russia, and yet accepting increased bRics financial power somehow isn't the same supporting Russian power?

I mean, anti-Trumpers are engaging in the most hysterical conspiracy theories ever, saying that Trump is secretly an agent of Putin because....he isn't mindlessly doing everything that Zelesnkyy demands of him. But somehow, accepting a move to a world where Russia and its allies have more power is "neutral"?

I loathe the comparisons between Trump and Hitler - two very different things if you understand history. On the topic of a war between Western nations and Eastern bloc nations, what Western militaries lack in size they make up for in skill and wouldn't underestimate them. The Chinese and Russian armies still operate on outdated doctrines of command and control. In contrast, most Western armies utilise "Mission Command" tactics (as derived ironically from the Nazi Auftragstaktik), which means their forces are trained to take battlefield initiative. This is why Russia struggled so much at the outset against Ukraine because they are using outdated doctrines. Ive worked with many ex-ADF staff over the years and let me tell you generally speaking they are brilliant performers. Contrast this to ex-Police (who are led by command and control) who are often far less capable (working with ex-police is a nightmare for this reason).
They have no industrial base, and it's not a problem that can have money thrown at it to fix. No reasonable amount of money is going to build a war industry in the next few years.

And how many Australians would be willing to risk dying or being gravely injured in Ukraine? Any? And of course, how would this remotely benefit Australians in any way? Part of the reason Australia gets involved overseas is as a favor to the US so they have our backs. But now idiots are saying we need to do this.....because the US isn't all-in on war with Russia? Braindead.
 

enoilgam

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Completely irrelevant - India doesn't care about Ukraine and is buying tens of billions of dollars worth of oil from Russia.

Turkey has europe by the balls already. They would and could do this now without anyone coming down on them.

Then these Europeans are morons. In any other context, not being anti-russia is the same as being pro-russia, and yet accepting increased bRics financial power somehow isn't the same supporting Russian power?

I mean, anti-Trumpers are engaging in the most hysterical conspiracy theories ever, saying that Trump is secretly an agent of Putin because....he isn't mindlessly doing everything that Zelesnkyy demands of him. But somehow, accepting a move to a world where Russia and its allies have more power is "neutral"?
Im not saying Trump is wrong, Europe absolutely needs to do more for its security especially on Ukraine. The way he has gone about it though is completely wrong. Getting into a drag down argument with Zelensky in the Oval Office and sending Vance to Europe to insult their leaders and countries publicly isn't a great idea. It will eventually degrade US power by shifting the dynamics of the Allied relationships from one of "We share values" to a transactional relationship. Better leaders use soft power to achieve their means. Would Ronald Reagan, Richard Nixon or LBJ (all notoriously tough negotiators) have done what Trump and Vance did? No, they would have done so diplomatically and behind the scenes. It's like a workplace, what's more effective, a manager who yells and berates staff/stakeholders or one who effectively engages people to deliver results? As I said, I agree with Trump on a lot of things Ukraine/Europe related, but his methodology is dreadful.

They have no industrial base, and it's not a problem that can have money thrown at it to fix. No reasonable amount of money is going to build a war industry in the next few years.

And how many Australians would be willing to risk dying or being gravely injured in Ukraine? Any? And of course, how would this remotely benefit Australians in any way? Part of the reason Australia gets involved overseas is as a favor to the US so they have our backs. But now idiots are saying we need to do this.....because the US isn't all-in on war with Russia? Braindead.
Germany and France have a pretty solid defence industry that can be ramped up if needed. If push comes to shove and nuclear weapons aren't involved, Id back Europe over Russia any day. As I said, Ive worked with ADF people who train under similar doctrines and let me tell you I have full faith in those capabilities.

I put the question to you, how do you think this Ukraine problem should be resolved?
 

SylviaB

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Im not saying Trump is wrong, Europe absolutely needs to do more for its security especially on Ukraine. The way he has gone about it though is completely wrong. Getting into a drag down argument with Zelensky in the Oval Office and sending Vance to Europe to insult their leaders and countries publicly isn't a great idea. It will eventually degrade US power by shifting the dynamics of the Allied relationships from one of "We share values" to a transactional relationship. Better leaders use soft power to achieve their means. Would Ronald Reagan, Richard Nixon or LBJ (all notoriously tough negotiators) have done what Trump and Vance did? No, they would have done so diplomatically and behind the scenes. It's like a workplace, what's more effective, a manager who yells and berates staff/stakeholders or one who effectively engages people to deliver results? As I said, I agree with Trump on a lot of things Ukraine/Europe related, but his methodology is dreadful.
It's always been transactional. I applaude Trump for making it explicitly so.

And again, what does this "soft" power give the US? Currency is the only thing you've pointed to and it's not clear that's even on the table.

And can I remind you that virtually all EU leaders spend much of the past 8 years publicly and explicitly criticizing and insulting Donald Trump, and have been criticizing the US for its entirely domestic issues for decades? People are mad that the US isn't being a doormat any more and tdoing to Europe what they do to the US. Europe is powerless without the US and need to learn that the time of biting the hand that feeds you is over. These dickheads were furiously insulting the US over fucking George Floyd of all things (something that no US state or federal department supported or condoned, much less ordered), and yet consider it unconscionable that Vance would tell them off for sending jack booted thugs to break down people's doors and haul them off to jail for wrongthink?

It's simply incoherent to say that the US is crucial for Ukraine's security and independence and then do nothing but insult the US. When has criticizing and insulting Trump ever accomplished anything? They've all been doing this for the past 9 years and the result was Trump winning the popular vote.

But in any case, what's so hilarious about all of this is that virtually everyone furious at Trump right now repeated the same propaganda that Biden wasn't senile and didn't need to be replaced. Well done, morons, this is your reward.

Germany and France have a pretty solid defence industry that can be ramped up if needed. If push comes to shove and nuclear weapons aren't involved, Id back Europe over Russia any day. As I said, Ive worked with ADF people who train under similar doctrines and let me tell you I have full faith in those capabilities.
Germany is building a new missile factory that won't be finished until September 2026. And that's for a factory that's already started. The rest of Europe cannot ramp up in a meaningful time period. And it's not as if that factory alone will change the course of the war or anything.

I put the question to you, how do you think this Ukraine problem should be resolved?
I'm not sure, but being willing to entertain the idea of a peace agreement with Russia that involves territorial and/or other concessions has to be part of it. It's one thing to say such agreements can't or won't work because Russia will violate them, but most of the opposition is not for this reason, it's opposition to the very idea that Ukraine should have to give up anything. Zelenskyy himself said that the war isn't over until Ukraine has all territories including Crimea back - delusional.

And what almost nobody is considering is that the US having critical minerals mining projects across Ukraine is probably a really, really good way of making the US invested in the security of Ukraine and making the Russia more hesitant in the scope of their attacks.
 

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And what almost nobody is considering is that the US having critical minerals mining projects across Ukraine is probably a really, really good way of making the US invested in the security of Ukraine and making the Russia more hesitant in the scope of their attacks.
????? whatre they gonna do, send troops to Ukraine? thats a pretty big spin from what trump's current policy is...
 

Socialism

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thank god you don't know what that was a reference to jfc.......
??? ive got a few thoughts on this 😭
1. Firstly i had to google 'jfc' to find out it was jesus fucking christ LOL
2. I mean now that you say it, it sounds like its referencing putting something down
3. but i thought u were just calling me naive, like bambi in the movie bambi


4. what is it a reference to??? is it a piece of media or just that you were referencing killing me??
 

Socialism

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??? ive got a few thoughts on this 😭
1. Firstly i had to google 'jfc' to find out it was jesus fucking christ LOL
2. I mean now that you say it, it sounds like its referencing putting something down
3. but i thought u were just calling me naive, like bambi in the movie bambi


4. what is it a reference to??? is it a piece of media or just that you were referencing killing me??
also u didnt think my joke was funny :(
 

enoilgam

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It's always been transactional. I applaude Trump for making it explicitly so.

And again, what does this "soft" power give the US? Currency is the only thing you've pointed to and it's not clear that's even on the table

I don’t think the U.S.’s global leadership is just transactional. It's the worlds biggest economy, its soft power attracts foreign investment and gives it a major edge in trade negotiations. Countries want to do business with the U.S. because of its stability, influence, and reliability. Abandoning allies or pushing tariffs makes the U.S. seem unreliable, which can hurt its long-term economic interests by driving away investment and creating uncertainty. From an economic standpoint, the best way to counter rivals like China or Russia is by staying a reliable leader in global markets.

My hottest of takes is Ive never believed that China would overtake the US economy simply because a) The capitalist system is has is always going to perform better long-term vs a communist system and b) the US has a reputation for reliability built over 80 years. Now Im not so sure, because if China can occupy the space the US is leaving behind maybe they could.

I'm not sure, but being willing to entertain the idea of a peace agreement with Russia that involves territorial and/or other concessions has to be part of it. It's one thing to say such agreements can't or won't work because Russia will violate them, but most of the opposition is not for this reason, it's opposition to the very idea that Ukraine should have to give up anything. Zelenskyy himself said that the war isn't over until Ukraine has all territories including Crimea back - delusional.

And what almost nobody is considering is that the US having critical minerals mining projects across Ukraine is probably a really, really good way of making the US invested in the security of Ukraine and making the Russia more hesitant in the scope of their attacks.
I think it's a fair deal for peace, but Russia needs to come up with some concessions to, like maybe allowing the Ukraine to join the EU or an investment in rebuilding Ukraine in partnership with the EU etc. The critical minerals deal is a waste for the US, Ukraine currently doesn't mine a lot of that stuff and its material value is unclear.
 

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