2007 Federal Election - Coalition or Labor/Howard or Rudd? (2 Viewers)

[Rafy]

Rudd backs down on casuals
LABOR has dumped explicit support for casual workers and contractors in a stripped-back draft platform as the Opposition struggles to contain union tensions over policy direction.


Onus is on Rudd

CONTRARY to the deepest orthodoxy of Labor politicians, trade union officials and political analysts, the Work Choices laws represent the decisive test of Kevin Rudd's credentials to govern Australia. It is Rudd, not John Howard, who faces the bigger decisions on Work Choices. It is Rudd, not Howard, who has to formulate and explain his Work Choices policy. It is Rudd, not Howard, who has yet to address the big questions on Work Choices. [...]

 

[volition]

I wouldnt know the specifics either mun - but faster file transfer would obviously allow business to increase work over the net, which leads to increased volume, efficiency and profit. The industry and media have embraced it, and full national internet coverage is nothing short of fantastic, in terms of creating opportunity and social equality.

Wouldn't most businesses that really have a use for high speed internet already have some type of broadband solution? We already have the infrastructure in place for ADSL2+, satellite and cable internet in pretty much all the bigger cities and it looks like coverage is increasing over time.


As for Rudd's alternative to Work Choices, I think he's probably going to be held to ransom by all the unions. I really hope that whatever he comes up with isn't too one sided.

 

[frog12986]

John Howard made an interesting point yesterday in relation to Labor and the Union influence on policy development (particularly industrial relations).

How can the ALP profess to be independent of the unions, when 70% of their front bench are ex-union officials, and 2 front benchers are ex-heads of the ACTU.

Further, why is it that Joe Hockey repeatedly duels with Greg Combet in the media over Workchoices and not the Opposition Leader or Industrial Relations Spokeperson? It seems that the ALP are held captive by the unions even more than in the past. Why don't we compare the impact that Workchoices has had upon people, and the broader economy in general, to the results that the Accord provided?

For every negative result of Workchoices, there will be a positive outcome, and evidently nothing has changed in that regard. As long as there are unscrupulous employers in theworkplace (who are a distinct minority) there will be negatives regardless of the system. Identifying individual cases fails in this regard, as it is ultimately the broader economic impact that is the more reliable indicator.

 

[wheredanton]

How can the ALP profess to be independent of the unions, when 70% of their front bench are ex-union officials, and 2 front benchers are ex-heads of the ACTU.

Further, why is it that Joe Hockey repeatedly duels with Greg Combet in the media over Workchoices and not the Opposition Leader or Industrial Relations Spokeperson? It seems that the ALP are held captive by the unions even more than in the past. Why don't we compare the impact that Workchoices has had upon people, and the broader economy in general, to the results that the Accord provided?

I don't see what the big deal is. The Liberals have special interest groups that have a strong influence on its policy. The BCA, the HR Nicholls Society

 

[frog12986]

I don't see what the big deal is. The Liberals have special interest groups that have a strong influence on its policy. The BCA, the HR Nicholls Society

Noone is really debating that point, however when it comes to Workplace Relations the ALP is going to be less reluctant to commit itself to structural reform due to the vested interests of the unions (despite Keatings inroads).

Of course the current reforms have been developed in conjunction with the various business interests of the Coalition, however the doomsday prophecies of the unions have yet to eventuate. The scare campaign will continue, however over time, the re-unionisation of the workplace will be become more and more difficult.

 

[wheredanton]

Of course the current reforms have been developed in conjunction with the various business interests of the Coalition, however the doomsday prophecies of the unions have yet to eventuate. The scare campaign will continue, however over time, the re-unionisation of the workplace will be become more and more difficult.

It's pretty much conceded by everyone that unionisation will never really make a comeback.

The doomsday prophecies of Unions will not happen on a wide scale, but for a minority of workers the changes may not be good.

Large employers are unlikely to take advantage of the workplace reforms until after the federal election and, in all seriousness, I doubt the ALP will 'rip up' the laws. To be cynical they will probably rename it and make a few fringe changes.

 

[Silver Persian]

For every negative result of Workchoices, there will be a positive outcome, and evidently nothing has changed in that regard. As long as there are unscrupulous employers in theworkplace (who are a distinct minority) there will be negatives regardless of the system. Identifying individual cases fails in this regard, as it is ultimately the broader economic impact that is the more reliable indicator.

The problem with this kind of argument is that the economy had been growing/unemployment falling for about 10 years before WorkChoices were introduced. In that kind of context, it isn't easy to attribute further good economic conditions specifically to WC, since there are many factors that could explain economic/employment growth that existed before the new legislation.

I'm also wondering why the government isn't releasing the stats compiled by the Employment Advocate - they might indicate problems with the IR legislation are widespread. Or the government may be worried about Labour catastrophising minor issues and want to keep IR off the agenda.

 

[frog12986]

The problem with this kind of argument is that the economy had been growing/unemployment falling for about 10 years before WorkChoices were introduced. In that kind of context, it isn't easy to attribute further good economic conditions specifically to WC, since there are many factors that could explain economic/employment growth that existed before the new legislation..

True, but at the same time, the ALP/Unions are also attributing every negative economic indicator without addressing the broader context. For instance, they claim that productivity has taken a dive since the introduction of WC. Fair point, however there was the concurrent implementation of Welfare to Work program, which was always going to adversely affect the productivity numbers. Re-introducing predominantly unskilled workers into the workforce will initiate a short term effect of this nature.

Both sides will attempt to paint a picture regardless of the broader contributing factors; thats politics.

 

[kokodamonkey]

the problem with alp is they have their power because of their deals with the unions and they claim to be "for the working people" yet only 1/5 people are part of a union. So the problem with labour is these days no body wants a commie govt, but labour cant conservatize themselves because the unions are twisting their arms.

 

[Sparcod]

the problem with alp is they have their power because of their deals with the unions and they claim to be "for the working people" yet only 1/5 people are part of a union. So the problem with labour is these days no body wants a commie govt, but labour cant conservatize themselves because the unions are twisting their arms.

Labour Party- Are we talking British politics here?

I don't think Labor (without the 'u' and with the capital 'L') is that far left like the communists. Surely, they are left but not that much.

All from my tiny little pea brain....

 

[ZabZu]

Back in 2004 one of Latham's policies was the abolishment of AWAs. At that time AWAs provided a reasonable safety net, much better than what a miniumum AWA consists of today. The ALPs strong opposition to statutory individual contracts is obviously due to the fact that unions are irrelevant in a workplace with individual contracts. I have no problem with pre-WorkChoices AWAs being used in small workplace where the employer would normally pay their employees according to the Award. The Award fuels inflation and is unrealistic in today's flexibile labour market. The ALP needs to put the economic interest of Australia before the interests of the unions.

However, Howard is encouraging AWAs as an alternative not only for the centralised Award but also collective bargaining at an enterprise level. An Enterprise Bargaining Agreement allows conditions to be traded away, hence providing flexibility for the employer. The introduction of enterprise bargaining in 1993 has reaped greater economic benefits than Howard's Workplace Relations Act of 1996.

If the Coalition wins later this year, the union movement will be severely crippled as more and more firms will introduce AWAs.

 

[kokodamonkey]

Back in 2004 one of Latham's policies was the abolishment of AWAs. At that time AWAs provided a reasonable safety net, much better than what a miniumum AWA consists of today. The ALPs strong opposition to statutory individual contracts is obviously due to the fact that unions are irrelevant in a workplace with individual contracts. I have no problem with pre-WorkChoices AWAs being used in small workplace where the employer would normally pay their employees according to the Award. The Award fuels inflation and is unrealistic in today's flexibile labour market. The ALP needs to put the economic interest of Australia before the interests of the unions.

However, Howard is encouraging AWAs as an alternative not only for the centralised Award but also collective bargaining at an enterprise level. An Enterprise Bargaining Agreement allows conditions to be traded away, hence providing flexibility for the employer. The introduction of enterprise bargaining in 1993 has reaped greater economic benefits than Howard's Workplace Relations Act of 1996.

If the Coalition wins later this year, the union movement will be severely crippled as more and more firms will introduce AWAs.

which is what we need to grow the economy and become more efficient. Unions are a waste of space and outdated.

 

[Sparcod]

But the unions still stand up for workers' rights.

OK you may say that they came from the industrial revolution days in England. There were definitely peaks during the war years due to growing industries.

These days, they still support those who are part of the working-class.

Oh yeah, aren't there other major political parties around the world that were founded by unionists or from union movement?? They're all lefts.
These include: UK's and NZ's Labour Party and Fiji's Labour Party.

 

[withoutaface]

Labour Party- Are we talking British politics here?

I don't think Labor (without the 'u' and with the capital 'L') is that far left like the communists. Surely, they are left but not that much.

All from my tiny little pea brain....

So are you here to attack his point, or to correct his grammar?

 

[hutchenc88]

Unions are a waste of time! I feel sorry for workers that are union members, whose weekly pay-packets are reduced because of union membership fees. Only then to have their hard earned money wasted by the unions on orange 'workers rights' signs and stickers that seemingly litter our nation. I'll be voting coalition - I was enraged to read in the paper the other day that Labor are going to get rid of my local member and replace her with that Greg Combet ACTU asshole, even though I'm not a Labor supporter, Kelly Hoare was the best kind of Labor mp, unaligned with all that factional BS. I'll seriously consider moving if I have some bastard union boss become my local member

 

[kokodamonkey]

So are you here to attack his point, or to correct his grammar?

obviously to attack my grammar because my points are golden.

 

[Josie]

Unions are a waste of time! I feel sorry for workers that are union members, whose weekly pay-packets are reduced because of union membership fees. Only then to have their hard earned money wasted by the unions on orange 'workers rights' signs and stickers that seemingly litter our nation. I'll be voting coalition - I was enraged to read in the paper the other day that Labor are going to get rid of my local member and replace her with that Greg Combet ACTU asshole, even though I'm not a Labor supporter, Kelly Hoare was the best kind of Labor mp, unaligned with all that factional BS. I'll seriously consider moving if I have some bastard union boss become my local member

Oh yes, I feel sorry for people doing something voluntarily.

Asshole.

I'd say something along the lines of if unions were useless, we wouldn't have them... but then we wouldn't have politicians either. Or a lot of things.

 

[frog12986]

I'd say something along the lines of if unions were useless, we wouldn't have them... but then we wouldn't have politicians either. Or a lot of things.

If that's your line of thinking, they'll be useless (in the private sector) pretty soon.

 

[Josie]

Until they prove completely useless, please stop marginalising them and making generalisations like "they do nothing".

 

[wheredanton]

Unions are best in lower skilled industries. While I wont be working in an area that needs a union (I guess it has a professional society) family members have told me of times unions informed them of their rights and prevented employers from doing things they were not entitled to do. Unions often win small but not insignificant benefits for workers. Toilet paper for the toilets, danger money, weekend rates. Unions are often instrumental in negotiating fair redundancy packages.

In these lower skilled workplaces who do you call for employment advice? I have been stood down without pay? Are they allowed to do that? Can they sack me for in x instance? They have moved me to a new site further away without my consent...can they do that?

In more skilled industries where the employee has bargaining power unions are of little use...ie professionals etc.

I'd like to inquire of Frog what industry he sees himself employed in in the next 10 years?