2007 State Election - Labor or the Coalition/Iemma or Debnam? (2 Viewers)

[Optophobia]

Just yesterday new figures were realeased showing a 90% increase in crime in Western Sydeny over the past year and a 50% increase in the inner city.

An increase by 90%?
And 50% in the city?


An increase by 90% increase is impossible and what ever source you got that from is CLEARLY mistaken (more like, you (as you are on most things) are clearly mistaken).

The whole system is rotten and inept,

This is your perception of it.

and no amount of new recruits are going to make a difference seeing as how they are coming out of that rotten system.

The police system and the political system are two different systems. What exactly is it that the police are coming out of?

You are concerned about the way they deal with middle eastern crime. I'm sorry but you've been stung by ACA & TT again i'm afraid. Go out and get some middle eastern friends and you will realise how stupid have been.

Only by renewing the people at the top, getting rid of middle management and streamlining the police structure, as Debnam has proposed, will this ever change.

oh ok if you say so.

hmm yeah. lets see. firstly. Transport ,roads etc is STATE control not federal. so

And where do they get the FUNDING for that, you asshole parasite?

Lets see…

- The devil that is Urban Consolidation and the centralisation of planning powers (to Lord Sartor)
- Failure to address Sydney’s road transport issues - Spit/ Military Road, Parramatta Road, Victoria Road, the M4, the M5 - Sydney’s most popular carparks. Instead we have a user pays road system, despite a 1995 pledge to make Sydney toll free..
- Failure to adequately invest in public transport - train fares increased by 31%, 1500+ fewer bus services, 400+ fewer train services
- Failure to adequately invest in infrastructure in the face of steady population growth
- Failure to address Sydney’s water supply issues
- Failure to commit to land release to reduce the housing affordability issues plaguing Sydney
- Failure to invest and improve health services, instead doctoring and altering measurement standards, centralising decision making (in the face of a commitment to halve waiting lists)
- Taxes and burdens on both the housing sector and business driving investors and business people interstate, failing to capitalise on the longest period of sustained growth in Australian history, instead the state faces a black hole..
- A failure to maintain ‘record police numbers’ through awful retention rates

The list could go on and on if we cite more specific examples of their complete incompetence... does the cross city tunnel come to mind?

You can compile lists of criticisms and failures about anything. This is no means a put down for the state government because by publishing this list you are suggesting that the liberals would not have compiled such a list of failures if they would have been in power, which implies that they are armed with some super-natural ability to *get things done correctly*, which, as we can see from the liberals at a federal level, is clearly not the case.

 

[ihavenothing]

bshoc, are you sleeping with Debnam's script writer? because you are regurgitating those phrases even more than he does and I'm still waiting for a "softly-softly" and "bureaucrats" to be thrown in there as well.

 

[withoutaface]

You can compile lists of criticisms and failures about anything. This is no means a put down for the state government because by publishing this list you are suggesting that the liberals would not have compiled such a list of failures if they would have been in power, which implies that they are armed with some super-natural ability to *get things done correctly*, which, as we can see from the liberals at a federal level, is clearly not the case.

Let's review, shall we.

Someone (can't remember if it was you): There are no valid criticisms of the Carr/Iemma government, besides one-liner misunderstandings.
Frog: List of criticisms which are perfectly valid.
You: You can write criticism against anything.

The point of the list is that it establishes the following premise in a concrete form: "The Labor government that has governed NSW for the last 12 years has failed in its duty to the people."

We can posit that this government is more rotten than what the average government would be (which I think we can say fairly easily).

You then say that we can't know what the Coalition would be like were they to govern NSW, and supposing this is true, then we can assume that there is a greater than 50% chance that they would be above the bar that has been set by the Labor government (because, as we have already established, the ALP is performing below what the average state government would).

This then means that if we were to vote the Coalition in, there is a greater probablity that they'd be better than Labor than there is that they'd be worse, and hence voting them in would likely be to the advantage of the people of NSW.

That is unless you can provide reasons for why a Coalition government would be worse than the current ALP government (keep in mind that over half the MP's are moderates, and so "David Clarke would be free to ban abortion, homosexuality and clothing made from polyester" criticisms are invalid).

 

[Optophobia]

Let's review, shall we.

Someone (can't remember if it was you): There are no valid criticisms of the Carr/Iemma government, besides one-liner misunderstandings.
Frog: List of criticisms which are perfectly valid.
You: You can write criticism against anything.

By the very fact that they didn't suggest them when they use their one liners, implies that they are not important to them nor are they affecting them in any way.

The point of the list is that it establishes the following premise in a concrete form: "The Labor government that has governed NSW for the last 12 years has failed in its duty to the people."

If you believe the tacky liberal advertising campaign.

PS: It was smart of Debnam to acknowledge defeat in the election AND suggest that people lodge a vote for the liberals as a protest vote. This pulls the rug out from under neath the large portion of people who wont vote liberal simply because they think that its a wasted vote if they do.

It is sinking low for Debnam to do this, but in this era where lowness, naivity and manipulation is the trend, i guess you have to talk the talk if you want any chance.

You then say that we can't know what the Coalition would be like were they to govern NSW, and supposing this is true, then we can assume that there is a greater than 50% chance that they would be above the bar that has been set by the Labor government (because, as we have already established, the ALP is performing below what the average state government would).

How do you determine the 50% chance? How have you established that the ALP is performing below the average state government? The other state governments are all Labor.. what are you talking about?

Being in office for 12 years, they have more experience than Debnam. You're standing on the premise that Debnam will somehow fix what you perceive to be wrong with the state. Like it's that easy. This is where your liberal bias rears its head because you're having blind faith in him when you don't stipulate how it is that he can fix something, yet Labor can't.

This then means that if we were to vote the Coalition in, there is a greater probablity that they'd be better than Labor than there is that they'd be worse, and hence voting them in would likely be to the advantage of the people of NSW.

I'm not getting you..

That is unless you can provide reasons for why a Coalition government would be worse than the current ALP government (keep in mind that over half the MP's are moderates, and so "David Clarke would be free to ban abortion, homosexuality and clothing made from polyester" criticisms are invalid).

Because of a lack of experience, and the inherent nature of the liberals to make a jurisdiction "ugly":

Reverend Fred Nile's Christian Democratic Party is expected to benefit from its preference deal with the Coalition.

^^ from this example we can see the way that state liberals swing.

 

[withoutaface]

By the very fact that they didn't suggest them when they use their one liners, implies that they are not important to them nor are they affecting them in any way.

If you believe the tacky liberal advertising campaign.

PS: It was smart of Debnam to acknowledge defeat in the election AND suggest that people lodge a vote for the liberals as a protest vote. This pulls the rug out from under neath the large portion of people who wont vote liberal simply because they think that its a wasted vote if they do.

It is sinking low for Debnam to do this, but in this era where lowness, naivity and manipulation is the trend, i guess you have to talk the talk if you want any chance.

I doubt it will be seen as any lower than telling blatant lies about the public service hiring freeze, turning a man's 8 year flawless record in service of this country into an object of ridicule, pretending that Debnam's IR policy is any different to the one Victorian Labor introduced, and the one that would inevitably be introduced after the election, or paying the private investors involved with the Lane Cove tunnel off to keep it closed until after the election.

How do you determine the 50% chance? How have you established that the ALP is performing below the average state government? The other state governments are all Labor.. what are you talking about?

And they all have higher growth figures than us.

Being in office for 12 years, they have more experience than Debnam.

They also have a proven record of failure.

You're standing on the premise that Debnam will somehow fix what you perceive to be wrong with the state. Like it's that easy. This is where your liberal bias rears its head because you're having blind faith in him when you don't stipulate how it is that he can fix something, yet Labor can't.

Debnam is willing to make unpopular decisions to get things done. Examples are recycled water, which is the most viable alternative to the water crisis by a very long way, but Labor are too afraid to institute it because people are paranoid about drinking filtered urine. Another example is that even Costa himself has expressed that there needs to be cuts to the bureacracy, but he hasn't done in becasue Labor are hostage to the unions which represent the deadweight bureaucrats. The Liberal party, on the other hand, doesn't give 50% of its preselection votes to the unions and so can make decisions which are in the public interest, but against the interests of the union hierachy, without the ministers responsible losing their seats.

I'm not getting you..

You've pulled the "we know nothing about the state Liberals because we don't have a crystal ball to see what would've happened had they been in government for the last 12 years" line, and as such I've made the assumption, based on the fact that there's an equal distribution of government's above and below the "average government" line, and that the ALP is a worse than average government, that there's a 50% + however many % the ALP is below average by chance than the Coalition will be better than the ALP. That's the standard method for analysing an event's probability if we know nothing about it (which you've established we don't).

^^ from this example we can see the way that state liberals swing.

So from the fact that the ALP are preferencing the Greens we can assume that they endorse the decriminalisation of crystal meth?

 

[wheredanton]

Lets see…
- Failure to address Sydney’s road transport issues - Spit/ Military Road, Parramatta Road, Victoria Road, the M4, the M5 - Sydney’s most popular

Spit/military? It's all safe liberal up there. Perhaps if the seat were marginal Labor then something might happen. Didn't brogs want to widen the spit bridge? Don't people understand that if they want something done in their seat they have to make it marginal?

does the cross city tunnel come to mind?

I assume the Liberals would have simply not built it? Nor the Eastern Distributor?

advertised in the Sydney CBD:
http://www.jobs.nsw.gov.au/JobList.asp

The ALP merely has the vested interests of the PSA at heart, and this claim that front line police and firefighters will be cut is absolutely absurd and politicking at it's worse. In fact it is the Coalition that has committed itself to providing 1700 more police, almost 1000 more than the ALP; do the math.

Yes, it's absurd, but it's good politics.

Perhaps the only truth is that nurses will now come under the Federal system. Whether that will increase or decrease their wages is another question. Nobody really knows.

As pointed out by withoutaface the arrangement Debnam's proposes isn't that different to what Bracks did in Victoria. But still, it's good effective political stuntsmanship.

 

[frog12986]

You can compile lists of criticisms and failures about anything. This is no means a put down for the state government because by publishing this list you are suggesting that the liberals would not have compiled such a list of failures if they would have been in power, which implies that they are armed with some super-natural ability to *get things done correctly*, which, as we can see from the liberals at a federal level, is clearly not the case.

You asked for some examples, and I was quite happy to give them.

 

[kokodamonkey]

thanks withoutaface. its good to know there is more then one good knowledgeable conservative on this site.. unlike the brainwashed unionist's like Optophobia.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

The New South Wales government is elected to administer and manage the delivery of services and infrastructure in this state; the key role of state government. It is NOT the Federal Governmments responsiblity and never has been, and your suggestion that the Commonwealth should intervene in the public transport system is the most ignorant piece of drivel on this forum. Under the tax reforms of this Federal Government, state governments have had record levels of revenue and have treated it with disdain. Then they have the hide to attempt to criticise and implicate the Commonwealth for failing to assist in the delivery and administration of the services they are elected to provide.

Stop being a blame shifting retard and read between the lines, fool. You can either sit there, like your beloved Howard ministers and do nothing while shifting blame for fun, or you can accept that the best thing for this abysmal federal government to do would be to take their beloved surplus money and actually put it into something USEFUL! Who gives a flying fuck about anything else, work together a bit and fix the fucking problem. To do the opposite, shifting blame in the face of a state government that needs help makes you worse than the (supposedly) mis managed state government in focus.

Sorry didnt realise he had to keep his trillion policy's infront of him because remember they have quite a lot of policies. however lets take umm i think its michael costa thats the current treasure? (cant remember coz they are all hopeless and keep playing musical chairs i mean musical portfolios). And he was talking with... steve price on 2ue. and he didnt know what the brackets were for certaint taxes. and hes currently in the job. and then i think it was about 5mins later he brought out the race card..

I'm not going to respond to any of the other moronic ramblings you produced, but I'll respond to this. Hey, if you want to vote for an opposition that clearly doesn't know anything about the systems they want to run, and throw policies around without having knowledge on how much they cost then feel free. He's trying to be a premier and he doesn't know how much a highly important policy will cost? Yeah, I don't think that's premier material. Hell, the member for Vaucluse even said that he didn't think public transport was a key issue in this election. It shows just how out of touch this retard is with anything west of Sydney Uni.

 

[kokodamonkey]

Stop being a blame shifting retard and read between the lines, fool. You can either sit there, like your beloved Howard ministers and do nothing while shifting blame for fun, or you can accept that the best thing for this abysmal federal government to do would be to take their beloved surplus money and actually put it into something USEFUL! Who gives a flying fuck about anything else, work together a bit and fix the fucking problem. To do the opposite, shifting blame in the face of a state government that needs help makes you worse than the (supposedly) mis managed state government in focus.

I cant believe you keep playing the commonwealth for state problems. Howabout morris dilemma should have gotten off his ass and do something except for blame howard? thats all the alp does is say "im sorry" and blames someone else. Think about it. everytime something goes wrong, - lane cove tunnel, the train incident last week on the bridge, when the 2big ships were in etc. all we get are "im sorry. launching investigation. it was Mr. X's faultnot mine!" Also heard of like the word responsibilities or jurisdiction? what your suggesting is like.... Blaming Japan for Not giving Money to North Korea to fix their hospitals. i mean come off it.

I'm not going to respond to any of the other moronic ramblings you produced, but I'll respond to this. Hey, if you want to vote for an opposition that clearly doesn't know anything about the systems they want to run, and throw policies around without having knowledge on how much they cost then feel free. He's trying to be a premier and he doesn't know how much a highly important policy will cost? Yeah, I don't think that's premier material. Hell, the member for Vaucluse even said that he didn't think public transport was a key issue in this election. It shows just how out of touch this retard is with anything west of Sydney Uni.

If you want to re elect a government that doesnt know how to govern and "governs" by using scare tactics read to them by their trade union puppet masters , then BE MY GUEST. get a job.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

I cant believe you keep playing the commonwealth for state problems. Howabout morris dilemma should have gotten off his ass and do something except for blame howard? thats all the alp does is say "im sorry" and blames someone else. Think about it. everytime something goes wrong, - lane cove tunnel, the train incident last week on the bridge, when the 2big ships were in etc. all we get are "im sorry. launching investigation. it was Mr. X's faultnot mine!" Also heard of like the word responsibilities or jurisdiction? what your suggesting is like.... Blaming Japan for Not giving Money to North Korea to fix their hospitals. i mean come off it.

Lol. No-one is blaming Howard, I'm pointing out that we'd have a much more effective government if his government gave the states money where it's needed. You know...as opposed to buying useless fighter jets and mass producing fridge magnets. I guess it comes down to whether our governments want to do what's best for the country, or for their re-election chances.

 

[bshoc]

I think the Liberals are gonna lose Epping, since everyone hates the candidate who is some far right pro-life retard. A lot of people angry after he went doorknocking in the early morning when they were still in pyjamas around North Epping.

What?!?!? Are you that retarded?

Tink is on his way to increasing his margin, easily, I'd say 9% or 10% up from 7%.

Besides North Shore people are smart and have jobs, we don't vote in retards like Westies do, retards like Labor. Nor is conservatism a problem here, in fact it probably has the largest representation among any other part of Sydney.

Watch this post so I can laugh at you when the results come out.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

Besides North Shore people are smart and have jobs, we don't vote in retards like Westies do, retards like Labor.

Lol, that's a pretty shitty generalisation. I'm not too familiar with the current electorates in the State election, but in federal the divide between Labor and Liberal seems to be more of a North-South thing, than your East-West thing.

 

[bshoc]

An increase by 90%?
And 50% in the city?


An increase by 90% increase is impossible and what ever source you got that from is CLEARLY mistaken (more like, you (as you are on most things) are clearly mistaken).

My bad, its only 50% and 71%

"Robbery with a firearm has soared by 50 per cent in inner Sydney and by 71 per cent in the city's inner west since October 2004, the latest NSW crime statistics reveal."

This is from a slighly older article though, I couln't find the one I read yesterday.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,20834871-29277,00.html?from=public_rss

But yeah, eat your own words you failed, corrupt, inept government supporting pinko

This is your perception of it.

No thats definetely reality, 3 people have highlighted about 40-50 serious mistakes this government has made in the space of 24 hours, none of which you have even come close to refuting.

(why? because its fact)

The police system and the political system are two different systems. What exactly is it that the police are coming out of?

A police system administrated by an inept Labor government, which is afraid to adress things like middle eastern crime in fear of losing votes in Labors Western Sydney cesspool.

You are concerned about the way they deal with middle eastern crime. I'm sorry but you've been stung by ACA & TT again i'm afraid. Go out and get some middle eastern friends and you will realise how stupid have been.

I haven't seen a minute of TT or ACA since we got cable, about 4 years ago. Current affairs shows are bullshit.

50% and 71% crime rate rises are not ..

oh ok if you say so.

I'm not really hoping though, I doubt anything I can say can make you any less of a retard.

 

[bshoc]

Lol, that's a pretty shitty generalisation. I'm not too familiar with the current electorates in the State election, but in federal the divide between Labor and Liberal seems to be more of a North-South thing, than your East-West thing.

Come now Neb, its no secret that the more wealthy and successful electorates in Sydney show up as blue on the electoral map. Certainly in the State ones.

Federal is a little different since the electorates are bigger, and thus permits Labor, who draw the boundaries, to dilute the Liberal vote by including suburbs like Redfern and Ermington into otherwise blue electorates.

 

[bshoc]

bshoc, are you sleeping with Debnam's script writer?

No I'm just somebody who lives (and pays taxes) in New South Wales.

 

[kokodamonkey]

Lol. Its all a giant leftist conspiracy.

reds under the beds

 

[Stott Despoja]

What?!?!? Are you that retarded?

Tink is on his way to increasing his margin, easily, I'd say 9% or 10% up from 7%.

You're wrong, bshoc. Andrew Tink resigned as Shadow Attorney General and publicly stated that he would not recontest the seat of Epping some time ago.

Greg Smith, the former Deputy Director of Public Prosecutions and former President of the Right to Life Association in New South Wales, is now the Liberal candidate for Epping.

 

[Stott Despoja]

**points to the federal election thread**

Why are you pointing to a thread that has nothing to do with the issue at hand?

Oh, and as for that erection garbage, I'm sure that I'm not alone in thinking that you'd be best to keep such crap out of what is meant to be a reasonably serious part of the forum.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

Come now Neb, its no secret that the more wealthy and successful electorates in Sydney show up as blue on the electoral map. Certainly in the State ones.

Federal is a little different since the electorates are bigger, and thus permits Labor, who draw the boundaries, to dilute the Liberal vote by including suburbs like Redfern and Ermington into otherwise blue electorates.

DONT TRY TO REASON WITH ME! ITS UNPOSSIBLE!

Anyway, you offer a very glib, and unreasonable way to explain why the Sydney electorate is ALP. I very much doubt that Redfern is the sole explanation for it. Perhaps it's just that the people who live in this affluent south suburbs have a conscience?

Oh, and I live in Macarthur which is neither educated, nor wealthy yet is still a safe liberal seat. you lose.