2008 U.S. Election (1 Viewer)

Triangulum

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Next year's presidential election is shaping up to be massively awesome. Thoughts or favourite candidates, anyone? I'm personally hoping the Dems nominate Hillary Clinton and the Republicans John McCain. I'd prefer Hillary to win, but I'd be reasonably sort of OK with McCain, my main problems being his stances on abortion and gun rights.

Despite the predictions that if the situation in Iraq remains the same up until the election (November 2008) the Republican candidate is doomed to lose, I get the impression that they're doing a reasonably good job of distancing themselves from the war and from George Bush. Certainly some of the candidates for the GOP nomination are probably unelectable - it's hard to imagine the Republican base coming out in force for, say, Rudy Giuliani, who's been married three times and sort of supports abortion - but the party as a whole shouldn't be written off. The Democrat frontrunners all have serious flaws, and the Republicans aren't shy about attacking.

(If anyone wants to do some reading, the current frontrunners for the two parties' nominations are: Democrats Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, John Edwards and arguably Bill Richardson, who's a fair way behind; Republicans Rudy Giuliani, Mitt Romney, John McCain and Fred Thompson.)
 

jb_nc

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Re: 2008 US Election

Clinton:
  • Supports the PATRIOT act
  • Voted for the war and won't apologise for it
  • Received more than $400k from health care lobyists and opposes UHC
  • Supports capital punishment
  • Supports a border fence around Mexico (waste of money)
  • Completely unlikeable, no charisma, robotic personality, has a disapproval rating almost as high as approval, betting she would mobilise people to vote against her
  • Is a fake liberal

McCain is a nut. Fake conservative too.

Guiliani's platform is basically "9/11 never forget". He held a fund-raiser whereby people donated, you guessed it, $9.11. Fucking lol, he has no shame. He also went to London recently to berate boorish Englishmen about the fascism of the NHS. Fuck he would be the worst President ever he's a massive idiot, which you can see in his "Foreign Affairs" essay.

Go Obama (Ron Paul comedy Republican candidate).
 
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jb_nc

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Re: 2008 US Election

Ron Paul supports the genocide in Darfur.
 

jb_nc

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Re: 2008 US Election

Malfoy said:
Is that substantiated or are you being a troll?

Like I said, I'd not vote Democrat (it'd be as bad as voting Kevin Rudd here, and it'd be compromising my beliefs to do so) and most of the Republicans are conservative rather than more libertarian (and theocracy means even less freedom, which also goes against everything I stand for).

Given that I really, really doubt Paul supports genocide, he's still a preferred candidate. The guy agrees with me - he says income tax is theft!
Mr. Speaker, I rise in strong opposition to this incredibly dangerous legislation. I hope my colleagues are not fooled by the title of this bill, “Declaring genocide in Darfur, Sudan.” This resolution is no statement of humanitarian concern for what may be happening in a country thousands of miles from the United States. Rather, it could well lead to war against the African country of Sudan. The resolution “urges the Bush Administration to seriously consider multilateral or even unilateral intervention to prevent genocide should the United Nations Security Council fail to act.” We must realize the implications of urging the President to commit the United States to intervene in an ongoing civil war in a foreign land thousands of miles away.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul195.html

EDIT: Also: http://www.darfurscores.org/ron-paul?download=y
 
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jb_nc

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Re: 2008 US Election

Malfoy said:
That's not supporting genocide, that's declaring that he doesn't like foreign intervention. I doubt anyone likes genocide - but most libertarians believe that their country should not intervene in the civil wars of another.
So, by proxy, supporting genocide because they are nationalists rather than humanists.

Malfoy said:
Are you saying he supports genocide and tyranny there as well?
:confused: There was no acknowledged genocide in Iraq
 
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jb_nc

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Re: 2008 US Election

Malfoy said:
But - to be fair - a lot of people didn't want intervention in the Middle East. Why is Sudan different?
Because I'd say pretty much the whole world/UN would be willing to send troops to Sudan.

Malfoy said:
EDIT: What about the Kurds?
Saddam wasn't actively seeking to wipe out the whole Kurdish populace when the Coalition invaded.
 
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jb_nc

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Re: 2008 US Election

Malfoy said:
And a lot of the world was happy to send troops to Afghanistan/Iraq. Your point? Just because the majority wants to do something doesn't make it right. Tyranny of the majority is still tyranny. I was once fairly big on foreign intervention but I've come to the conclusion it's not really right to intervene unless the country is being aggressive/attacking you (see: Nazi Germany and lebensraum policies, etc.)
How morally bankrupt must you be to support the unmitigated killing of fellow human beings because they live in a different country to yourself.

Oh, and they're brown, too.
 

jb_nc

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Re: 2008 US Election

Malfoy said:
Are you saying there are no other options but foreign intervention?
I dunno, I'm guessing talking to the Arab warlords failed quite some time ago.
 

jb_nc

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Re: 2008 US Election

Here's a freerepublic post (fr is full of conservitive idiots) on why I don't like RP (quite succint):

Last week the Republicans had another debate, this one on FOX News. Not much has changed in the last few months; Rudy Giuliani is still in the lead in the polls and Fred Thompson is still in second despite the fact he didn't announce his intentions to run until a few days ago. What has changed, and changed for the worse, is the surging popularity of a Texas Congressman by the name of Ron Paul. I've been running into normal, intelligent people who support Paul, and it really scares me.

The reason Paul is as popular as he is has to do largely with his sudden support from Democrats and I have to admit, when I didn't know much about him I thought he sounded like a good candidate. He wants to end the Iraq war, have tighter borders, lower taxes and decrease spending, what's not to like? The problem doesn't lie with his policies and ideas, but rather his execution of said policies. How to end the war in Iraq: immediate pullout not only from Iraq, but from the whole of the Middle East. Never mind the slaughter that will occur with our exit. Paul, by the way, denies that this will happen, as the people saying it will are the same that said it would be an easy win. It was a mistake and we never should have been there.

He has more than one unworkable policy. Who else here wants to abolish the FDA? Dr. Paul is your man. His case against the FDA is that they take taxpayer money and are supposed to regulate the food and drugs coming into the country and those produced here, but there are still cases that get by them. Obviously, he claims, we would be better off with no Federal regulation. Corporations should police themselves. Paul is a big fan of the free market and wants to see an end of just about every federal agency that does anything useful or helpful. DEA? Gone. Medicare/Medicaid? History. IRS? The government has no right to take your money.

Paul is such a fan of the free market and letting businesses do whatever they want that during a recent session of Congress he was the one dissenting vote when Congress decided to stop giving tax money to corporations profiting from the genocide in Sudan. It seems pretty cut and dry, companies are making money off of a genocide. Why would you give them money to keep doing that? Paul's answer: We shouldn't tie the hands of corporations by limiting their business dealings. That pretty much covers foreign policy for Paul.

Paul doesn't like the federal tax system and actually signed a document circulated by the National Libertarian Organization a few years ago affirming this belief. Lower taxes is one of the tried and true methods of getting people to vote for you. The problem with Paul saying he'll get lower taxes is that it's not entirely true. Yes, your income will be less taxed, but Paul wants to raise the sales tax to 23 percent at the least. Have fun being poor, because you won't be able to afford anything under Paul's administration. What would be really interesting is seeing how much price gouging we would see with no regulatory bodies, but I'd rather not think about it.

More interesting is Paul's absolute belief in the free market. He wants to see an end of public service agencies and governmental controls. Private post offices, for example, would be bought up by companies and if you're not served by the same post office as say, the people sending you bills, you might never get the bill. Or you might incur a fee when you get the bill. Imagine all roads in the country being up for sale: Paul sees a future where this has happened and thousands of toll booths are being constructed across the country.

We wouldn't have a nutcase presidential candidate without him being a racist, not these days anyways. Paul luckily fits that bill. He's made his case against the African American community known very well, starting with this comment back in 1992, "If you have ever been robbed by a black teen-aged male, you know how unbelievably fleet-footed they can be." Later he would say the age to be prosecuted as an adult should be lowered to 13 because "black males age 13 who have been raised on the streets and who have joined criminal gangs are as big, strong, tough, scary and culpable as any adult and should be treated as such." It's no wonder White Supremacist Website and forum Stormfront.org has come out in support of Paul, as has former Ku Klux Klan member and politician David Duke.

Here's a list of things Paul wants to end because they have had failures in the past, or he sees them as useless: CIA, FBI, Department of Homeland Security, FDA, IRS, Medicare, FBI, DEA, UN, NATO, NAFTA and CAFTA. That's the short list. This is my biggest problem with Ron Paul. He offers no constructive thoughts, only destructive ones. He doesn't think a single thing can be made to work if it failed even once. Bad intelligence? Cut it out completely, don't try to reform it.

Overall, Paul has no workable ideas. He wants to return to a gold standard, which would destroy the US economy. He wants to cut nearly every government department and build a giant wall (not a fence) on our border with Mexico. I honestly don't understand how people can think he would make a good president.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1896254/posts
 

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Re: 2008 US Election

I'd prefer the Democrats to win--none of the Republican candidates particularly appeal to me and I don't want yet another (pseudo-)Bush in power. Look at what Bush has done to the world in just eight years of office.

Hillary Clinton seems a more charismatic sort of person to me than Barack Obama. I'm not denying Obama has appeal, but it seems to me that Clinton is a harder sort of person with a firmer hand who can take the US to exactly where it needs to go to.
 

Iron

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Re: 2008 US Election

I assume it will narrowly be Hillary, and I like to think that she's a bit of a trojan horse for good. She just wears the mask all candidates, especially women, must wear in order to achieve high office. I like to have faith that she'd be strong enough to massively take on the health system and military industrial complex.
 

Nebuchanezzar

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Re: 2008 US Election

Hilary Clinton, for the reasons that jb_nc provided*, is a giant, scab ridden, pus-filled vagina. Go Obama!

*It's unfortunate, as after this and that healthcare thing earlier today, I'm beggining to sound like a pathetic e-stalker.
 

Nebuchanezzar

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Re: 2008 US Election

Exphate said:
- He is black (let's face it, America is full of deep seated racism, especially against blacks. These shitheads would vote if Obama was in contention)
Not being argumentative (curious actually), but is there any evidence to suggest that this is true?
 

Tulipa

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Re: 2008 US Election

I think I'm one of the few people on BoS who will actually vote in that election.

Also
Not being argumentative (curious actually), but is there any evidence to suggest that this is true?
It depends where you go. There are racist fucks but there are bound to be when you've got a population of 300 million people. There are people who are deeply racist and pass that on to their kids but to generalise a bit, the vocal ones are normally in more rural communities in the South. Not to say it isn't in a lot of Americans but a lot don't vocalise it I guess. It's hard to gauge evidence for it really. In my experience I've encountered a few of them.

Another interesting note is that it's not compulsory to vote so you've got a lot of apathetic people out there who aren't going to impact the election at all.

If Hillary wins I'm going to hit someone very hard. Shady past with terrible ideas.
 

Nebuchanezzar

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Re: 2008 US Election

Point was that is that racism strong enough to work against a black democratic candidate?
 

Tulipa

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Re: 2008 US Election

Nebuchanezzar said:
Point was that is that racism strong enough to work against a black democratic candidate?
I personally don't think he'll get through partly because of inherent racism that still exists in the USA.

If he is elected then I'll admit I was wrong but I really doubt he will be.
 

Nebuchanezzar

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Re: 2008 US Election

From what I see on the media, which I'll admit is a far way off from actually being there first hand, racism in America tends to be toward the masses of black people who live in relative squallor rather than the outliers like Obama who's Harvard educated, in the public eye constantly, apparently happily married, responcible, crime free and who basically lives the same lifestyle as all the other candidates.
 

Iron

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Re: 2008 US Election

Nebuchanezzar said:
From what I see on the media, which I'll admit is a far way off from actually being there first hand, racism in America tends to be toward the masses of black people who live in relative squallor rather than the outliers like Obama who's Harvard educated, in the public eye constantly, apparently happily married, responcible, crime free and who basically lives the same lifestyle as all the other candidates.
Yeah, the Black community have adopted the American dream. Their basic aspirations are mainstream. Everywhere, since the 60s, class, race and religion have defined politics less and less.
 
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Re: 2008 US Election

jb_nc said:
Ron Paul supports the genocide in Darfur.
Is it just me, or is this Darfur business becoming such a played card for people claiming to be globally informed? I think I saw a bus in the city with something about it. It's like things are getting dry in the middle east, so north Africa suddenly becomes interesting...

I have no idea why our society and media has to focus only on one problem at once. I mean, we're talking about Africa here. Anywhere south of Cairo and north of Pretoria is a constant war zone. People there have been killing each other for a patch of land since time began - it's pretty safe to say that by your definitional of 'support' that somewhere, some politician supports the genocide in any African region.

But as Malfoy says, just because they don't support intervention for either practical or ideological reasons does not mean politicians actually support it; they're against intervening.

Tulipa said:
I personally don't think he'll get through partly because of inherent racism that still exists in the USA.

If he is elected then I'll admit I was wrong but I really doubt he will be.
He won't. Americans are afraid that he'll use his influence too much for affirmative action, as well.
 

Nebuchanezzar

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Re: 2008 US Election

But as Malfoy says, just because they don't support intervention for either practical or ideological reasons does not mean politicians actually support it; they're against intervening.
They know the results of their apathy though, so it's kinda the same thing...
 

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