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Abortion debate (3 Viewers)

Abortion debate

  • Abortion illegalised

    Votes: 51 19.8%
  • Tougher laws

    Votes: 35 13.6%
  • Keep current laws

    Votes: 155 60.1%
  • don't care

    Votes: 17 6.6%

  • Total voters
    258
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bshoc

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Not-That-Bright said:
Whatever, but where's this pain comming from? The fetus's? We've established they don't feel pain.
No you havent - even early fetuses have a brain, a nervous system, and arguably, more of a spine than you.

So if the women whom get the abortions usually don't feel pain and if other people that oppose abortion are like you and don't feel any pain - then where does the pain come from? Because I can tell you that in your world, there is alot of pain caused and alot of people would be upset.
Would you rather upset a person or kill them? Toughie eh?

Therefore isn't the decision easy?

Allow abortion - Little pain.
Ban abortion - Lots of pain.
You dont know about the fetus so stop pretending - and lots of pain is fitting if it was a mistake on the womans behalf.

For a utilitarian society the decision seems quite easy.
We dont live in the same society, I oppose murdering babies, you support it.
 

Not-That-Bright

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more of a spine than you.
Oh tuff.

No you have - even early fetuses have a brain, a nervous system, and arguably, more of a spine than you.
Point me to a credible scientific study which claims that fetus's feel pain in the early stages of pregnancy where most abortions are carried out. This was the tipping point for me, they do not feel pain until far into the pregnancy.

Would you rather upset a person or kill them? Toughie eh?
The only reason killing is such a bad thing is because it is something that upsets society and the people around the person killed.

You dont know about the fetus so stop pretending - and lots of pain is fitting if it was a mistake on the womans behalf.
Actually I do. If you look at other threads on BOS you'll find I used to be anti-abortion. However I found out that they do not feel pain until late in the pregnancy and that changed me around. I found that out by actually looking at the published research each side would point to and seeing that the overwhelming majority of the scientific community (in an issue where both sides are pushing for different results) believe that pain does not occur in fetus's before the very end of the pregnancy. The anti-abortionist lobby is huge, but still science prevails. Of course, I don't know if a fetus does or does not feel pain in the early stages of pregnancy, but based on what i've read so far I see no reason to imagine that it does.

I think one of the important things to realise is that while some organs have developed, the 'extra stuff' that is required to get them up and operation as they are in us is still being built.

As for the few women whom do get upset, most of them are women whom were pressured into the pregnancy and even then it's only lets be fair and say 5% of all abortions (the best australian study on the matter said 3% tho, i think it was called 'women decide' or something along those lines). Now that 5% that feel grief after the abortion, is surely less net grief than that from the other 95% that you'd have thrown in gaol or would be forced to have a child they do not want.
 
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acmilan

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Damage Inc. said:
I'm wishing they start a sterilization program. People like you'd be the first to go. Ah, it's all so dreamy.
Post-natal abortions would be just as effective
 

withoutaface

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robbie1 said:
If they don't want a baby, why did they spread their legs?

It's simple really, if your not ready to raise a child, don't fall pregnant.
You can't use that argument anymore you fucktarded sack of defective genetic code. You said that rape victims can't have abortion, therefore opening their legs, having consensual sex, or being sluts has no bearing upon your argument because even if they don't you wouldn't support abortion anyway.
 

withoutaface

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I think I've gone this whole thread without specifically outlining my position, so here it is:

I think that whether a foetus is a life is a grey area, but once it goes past a certain point then by 99% of definitions, it is alive. Now, in order for the government to introduce a certain restriction the burden of proof should lie on their shoulders, and so to ban abortion they need to first prove that foetuses are alive at 'x' number of weeks. They, of course, cannot do this, and as such judgement should be passed onto the parents of the foetus, because in the absence of an objective argument from the government, they are in the best position to decide. If you believe that life begins at conception, that's cool, don't have an abortion, I completely respect that, but don't try to force an opinion that is a complete scientific grey area down people's throats, especially when you don't have any qualifications in the relevant field, save some ambiguous bible quotes (no, abortion is not murder in Australia because it's not illegal).
bshoc said:
INDAPENDANT
That is possibly the worst spelling of 'independent' I've ever laid eyes upon, what's even funnier is that it was in caps.
 
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robbie1

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withoutaface said:
You can't use that argument anymore you fucktarded sack of defective genetic code. You said that rape victims can't have abortion, therefore opening their legs, having consensual sex, or being sluts has no bearing upon your argument because even if they don't you wouldn't support abortion anyway.
How many abortions are due to rape?

1% isnt it?

So that means 99% of abortions are due to the child being an inconvinience, rather than being the result of forced sex. That means I can use my argument because its relevant 99% of the time :)
 

withoutaface

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robbie1 said:
How many abortions are due to rape?

1% isnt it?

So that means 99% of abortions are due to the child being an inconvinience, rather than being the result of forced sex. That means I can use my argument because its relevant 99% of the time :)
Irrelevant. We're arguing about all abortions, and as such your arguments must apply to all of them, not just a subset, unless of course you wish to change your opinion on rape victims.
 

Not-That-Bright

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It's simple really, if your not ready to raise a child, don't fall pregnant.
Well studies suggest that about half of all women whom get abortions were using a contraceptive at the time. While I'm not sure how they come to that conclusion (if they just ask the woman, I think it's possible that they lie), I think it remains that getting pregnant is often something that people have very limited control over if they choose to have sex.
 

ur_inner_child

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bshoc said:
Funny that, I used to be all pro-choice, its the womans right bs, until I found that most women were treating that privillage as a convenice and thinking of their children as simply their property. Infact I used to be the whole pro-choice, pro gay rights rights leftist collection
Really? I'm sincerely asking this. How could you once be pro-choice, since this killing idea seems so evidently in-grained in you?

I suppose these things happen, but its rather unusual.
 

bshoc

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Point me to a credible scientific study which claims that fetus's feel pain in the early stages of pregnancy where most abortions are carried out. This was the tipping point for me, they do not feel pain until far into the pregnancy.
Scientific studies on this do not exist to support one way or the other, the reasons for this are pretty obvious. Also that would that in your mond it would be ok to kill a person who is unconcious, on pain killers or posses faulty nociceptors.

The only reason killing is such a bad thing is because it is something that upsets society and the people around the person killed.
Killing is a bad thing becuase it violates that persons right to life, who cares about the people around them, its the person BEING killed that matters. What kind of fucked up values did the retards you call parents bring you up on?

Actually I do. If you look at other threads on BOS you'll find I used to be anti-abortion.
Funny that, I used to be all pro-choice, its the womans right bs, until I found that most women were treating that privillage as a convenice and thinking of their children as simply their property. Infact I used to be the whole pro-choice, pro gay rights rights leftist collection, funny what a little observation and rational thought can do to a mind eh?

However I found out that they do not feel pain until late in the pregnancy and that changed me around.
You found out, considering there have been no studies (becuase in the end nobody can revert to a fetal stage and experience existance for themselves), you were lied to, and brainwashed, by agendists - not at all unlike those poofter rights activist judges.

The anti-abortionist lobby is huge, but still science prevails.
As proven, these are not mutually exclusive by any means

Of course, I don't know if a fetus does or does not feel pain in the early stages of pregnancy, but based on what i've read so far I see no reason to imagine that it does.
If a brain and a nervous system do not constitute suffient structure for pain receptors, by you opinion, then what does?

As for the few women whom do get upset, most of them are women whom were pressured into the pregnancy and even then it's only lets be fair and say 5% of all abortions (the best australian study on the matter said 3% tho, i think it was called 'women decide' or something along those lines). Now that 5% that feel grief after the abortion, is surely less net grief than that from the other 95% that you'd have thrown in gaol or would be forced to have a child they do not want.
Irreguardless, it would be better than letting women kill their child, and the majority of the Australian population agree (once we disclude the fence sitters, who are also numerous). Infact the only reason we have this horrid law today is becuase of elitist judges who in no way represent society. As for the "womans pain", who cares about the feelings of a murder, not me.

Oh and by the way, utalitarianism is a farce and has been since 1951, get with the times - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow%27s_Impossibility_Theorem
 
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live.fast said:
you kids gotta calm down a bit...but seriously, it's as simple as this...

a) abortion is morally wrong
b) abortion is not the only option open to people these days
c) you wouldn't need an abortion if you took proper precautions

therefore abortion should be illegalised.
get the fuck off my internet
 

withoutaface

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I heard katie's aborted foetus was 2 weeks late on rent payments so she kicked it out.
 

bshoc

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ur_inner_child said:
Really? I'm sincerely asking this. How could you once be pro-choice, since this killing idea seems so evidently in-grained in you?

I suppose these things happen, but its rather unusual.
I stopped listening to other people and truly made up my own mind on everything - most people dont realize it but probably 99% of your beliefs are determined by agendists rather than you. And when you rationally and objectively analyze this abortion issue, one quickly finds very little grey area (save maybe for rape), you either support murder for convenience or you dont. I'm not about to suppport letting most women have that sort of god like privillage, because first of all, most of them havent earned it whatsoever. Combine that with the fact that we never had a vote on abortion laws (decided for us by agendist judges, whereas had the entire population voted abortion would be illigal) - and its easy to see why these laws arent good for society.
 

Not-That-Bright

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Scientific studies on this do not exist to support one way or the other, the reasons for this are pretty obvious. Also that would that in your mond it would be ok to kill a person who is unconcious, on pain killers or posses faulty nociceptors.
They don't exist for the purpose of supporting one one or the other, however they do by their conclusions support one way. If you don't believe me I'm more than willing to get some examples of real peer-reviewed scientific papers on the matter that explain's the brain development of fetus's.

Killing is a bad thing becuase it violates that persons right to life, who cares about the people around them, its the person BEING killed that matters. What kind of fucked up values did the retards you call parents bring you up on?
It seems ludacris to claim that the killing of someone matters even if no one cares, obviously it's only their caring that makes it matter... the fact that it violates the person's right to live might be one of the reasons why others would care, but on it's own it's impossible to be considered bad. Of course however, this is a side issue and I'd rather not discuss it further as my main point that which I expressed before about what a utilitarian society's decision would be (i.e. to maximise happiness). You've claimed that it's wrong because fetus's feel pain. If they do I agree with you, but I see no scientific research to lead me to the conclusion that 1st/2nd trimester fetus's do feel pain or that the 3rd trimester fetus's which feel pain feel pain in the same way in which a fully grown human feel's it.

Studies into this do exist, you may just not like the result.

You found out, considering there have been no studies (becuase in the end nobody can revert to a fetal stage and experience existance for themselves), you were lied to, and brainwashed, by agendists - not at all unlike those poofter rights activist judges.
Err... you have a misguided perception of what science is. Of course no one can revert to a fetal stage and experience it for themselves, however we can work off of the information/clues which we have and form an answer from them. Sure, the answer may in the end objectively be wrong, but we have no way of knowing that, so instead we should go by the best research we do have available.

As for research:
the myelin sheath, the insulating cover on nerve pathways that is required for efficient conduction of pain signals, does not begin forming around nervous system cells (neurons) in the spinal cord until about 24 weeks, and not till after birth in most of the cerebral cortex.
http://www.pediatrics.emory.edu/neonatology/dpc/brain.htm

They also back that claim up with;

Moore, Keith L. and T.V.N. Persaud. 2003. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. Saunders, Philadelphia, Penn. pp. 350

Morowitz, Harold J., and James S. Trefil. 1992. The Facts of Life: Science and the Abortion Controversy. Oxford University Press, New York, NY. pp. 119

Working connections between the thalamus and the higher cortex do not begin to form until about 20 to 26 weeks, with significant development of neuronal activity continuing after birth
http://www.spiked-online.com/Printable/0000000CA93C.htm

It's not too hard to find SOME info on the matter.

On top of this, you must realise that these sort of issues have been raised in court many, many times... and even in the american court system where it is stacked with republican right-to-life'rs they still come down on the side of the pro-choice's due to the much more credible and numerous scientific evidence.

If a brain and a nervous system do not constitute suffient structure for pain receptors, by you opinion, then what does?
Read up more on the literature, I gave you some links. Living beings are not simple ;)

Irreguardless, it would be better than letting women kill their child, and the majority of the Australian population agree (once we disclude the fence sitters, who are also numerous).
Er no they dont.

Infact the only reason we have this horrid law today is becuase of elitist judges who in no way represent society.
Well if you're the voice of the every day man, give me elitism.

As for the "womans pain", who cares about the feelings of a murder, not me.
Too bad it's not up to you, this is a collective decision for a society to make.

Infact I used to be the whole pro-choice, pro gay rights rights leftist collection, funny what a little observation and rational thought can do to a mind eh?
Unfortunately you've exhibited little of this. I've asked you to provide scientific literature to support your view that

I stopped listening to other people and truly made up my own mind on everything - most people dont realize it but probably 99% of your beliefs are determined by agendists rather than you.
Wow. Where'd you get that statistic from? Your arse?
99% of the things you say are wrong.

And when you rationally and objectively analyze this abortion issue, one quickly finds very little grey area (save maybe for rape), you either support murder for convenience or you dont.
Maybe you think so. But then you don't seem to have looked into the issue too much. You don't even seem to have a basic understanding of how fetus's/the brain develops. Beyond that you also don't seem to understand how science determines things, or even how the basic scientific method works.

Combine that with the fact that we never had a vote on abortion laws (decided for us by agendist judges, whereas had the entire population voted abortion would be illigal) - and its easy to see why these laws arent good for society.
Doubtful, where did you get these crazy statistics from? The overwhelming majority of australians are in support of abortion at the current time.
 
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This may surprise some of you, but this isn't the non-school sub-forum.

I'll reopen this thread in an hour or so.

---

Thread will remain closed. If you would like to debate the issue in a constructive manner, then I suggest that you head over to the new thread.
 
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