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About human existance (1 Viewer)

SashatheMan

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Foxodi said:
I believe you answered this yourself

"explanation for the reason of sin is that man, was given freewill because God didn't want humanity to be like robots worshiping him. Which resulted in man's disobedience towards God"

sin = bad = the problems that we have
It is from the free will which the problem came from.. After all, being worshipped by someone you 'programmed' to worship you (ie we had no choice) has no real meaning.

Don't you read my post in full?
I outlined the complications i see with that explanation.
Explain to me then, are soles in heaven 'programmed'? Because my understanding is that they cannot sin!

Or if the answer is 'no' they are not programmed, and for what ever reason given. Then a further question i would ask: Why didn't God just create man in heaven (or similar existance where man's rebellion against him wasn't possible. The whole forgiveness of sins, and death on the cross would not have been required.
 

Nat3skiz

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we don't actually exist at all, its some big government conspiracy.
 

ccc123

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urbanfashion-au said:
I just want to debate something and hear what you guys have to say about my theories. Although I am a Catholic, I still have my own opinions I want to express.

Usually catholics are just told what to believe and fed by the church. This not only happens with catholics, but also christians as well.

My first question is. Do humans really have a "soul"? or is it just something people have made up in the sense of fear that there is nothing left for us when we die.

According to evolution, Our earth was a barren land. No life existed. However, there were these rocks called Stalomites (? ) Anyway , these rocks turned the immense CO2 into Oxygen creating our atmosphere as well as bacteria in the sea.

We are born the same way most mammals are born and die. But what really distinguishes us from other animals is that they dont have the intellectual capacity to think further. This is because, as we know evolution took place and their brains did not need to evolve further for survival. Humans have evolved in the brain as well as bone structure. Other animals have evolved in terms of body structure and the ability to adap to environments that are foreign to them.
Take the house pest for example. The cockroach. They can live in very bacteria infected areas and still survive. Their main source of food is the dirtiest garbage, yet they have survived through nuclear bombs ( yes they are immune to nuclear radiation ) and millions of years on earth.
We can refer back to Darwins theory of survival of the fittest. As we know humans are only fit in the chain of all the species on earth as they are the "smartest" well most of us anyway are smarter than all animals :)
So, were we really afraid that there was nothing after our death? If so, did we create a being called "god?" to rely on and "meet" in our afterlife?

2. If there is a place called heaven?
Heaven is often depicted as a place where there are flying angels and everything is jolly, white and merry! There is no evidence saying what "heaven" is like. Only that there are gates to enter it? or something like that I have read somewhere

So for all us Christians, We will die one day and our "soul" will ascend to this place called heaven. Our bodies will be either cremated or buried deep under the soil of our Earth and eventually decay or be eaten by bugs or worms Just like any other animal would die.

We get to heaven and realize that we have to be good "people"
This means no one can actually argue with eachother, get into fights. Where would u go if you want a divorce with your old wife? Will you have to live with her for all of eternity? Eternity seems like a very long time if you compare your time on earth doing all the physical things that you can do..
What if all the women are taken and you died solo! Will you remain solo for the rest of your "soul life" on Heaven?

The answer to my question 2 is that the place called "heaven" is a place beyond our intellectual capacity to imagine or discuss. We just have to accept that there is a place called heaven if you are a true believer of God.

3. Dinosaurs in the bible?
Okay, so we all knew dinosaurs existed way before humans did according to archaeology. We cant mix science with religion. ie. the big bang theory and the creation theory. But what we cant fool ourselves is history!
Yes dinosaurs existed millions of years ago. What killed them? No one knows..
But the main thing is that there is no mention of dinosaurs when god created all these animals on earth. Why is this so? Because Jesus came a lot longer after the first archaeologists found the remains of bones of dinosaurs.
On the first day he did this the next day he did this. Gods "day" is relatively long though..

4. What are we doing on earth?
Have you ever thought, the day you were born, your purpose in life on earth. Why were you born to the family you are with now?
Here we must think of our good old probability and chance. Is our existance of our planet earth by pure fluke? If so we are also probably a fluke in this wide universe.




5. Fate
Fate is a broad topic to cover but i will try to keep it short.
Fate is something many people believe in and destiny. You may think, it exists or doesnt exist but just have a read to what I have to say.

Fate is like destiny. You are destined to do a particular thing or be somebody when you are "older"

Now think that you are destined to do something right after reading this.
You can scratch your head, get a cup of water, do whatever. That is all up to you. It is also destiny.
You were destined to scratch your head right at 1:05: 30seconds.
If these little random events can be classified into fate. Fate is totally random.
I think fate is totally random because we make our own destiny by every little action we take.
Even studying 5 minutes more before your sleep could heavily effect your marks and thus you could be making 500$ more a week because of that.
However, say you were lazy and you didnt study and you came out with a degree from uni with all passes. Would that have been your "fate" to be poorer than Joe next door?

Also another thing to think about is. What about all the poor people on earth. What did they do so wrong to be born in a poor environment? I am talking about real poor people in Africa!
Did god just let them suffer? Does he not care about the poor and dying? The bible always talks about poor and dying. Why cannot god do anything physical to change something on earth?
Maybe make it so theres water and available soil for farming.
We always pray in churches to let the aussie farmers have water so that we can get food to our supermarkets for our own consumption.
Ok so we've prayed and we got rain? No, that is totally out of Gods control.
What defines his control? What can the being "god" do physically ? Here your probably thinking, god does not intervene with human activity but just oversees us as humans and judges us.
But is that a good enough reason from a realistic point of view to let those starve to death. Many children die in Africa everyday because they cannot get a sip of water. It is improving through donations though the rich countries stay rich driving 4WD supercharged Cars consuming a tonne of fuel whilst the poor only get the luxury of a meal a day or less. This inequality is something I hope "god" did not wish for. But it is mainly the geographics of our earth that has made them poor and the lack of resources.
This is why when you look on various sites on eBay or anywhere. It is always the nigerians or africans trying to scam your "hard" earned money . We complain when we do actually get scammed by them and call them bad names. But why do they do that? They also need money. Probably for the most basic needs of survival, food and clothing. While we're bitching about losing 100$, you probably would've fed 100 children with that.

I think the whole notion of donation is a lot more crucial than we think. So next time you can donate to the poor, please do so :)
You will only truely realize the value of life when you are put in their shoes though.
Too long to read!

Nevertheless, in response to what I could be bothered to read:

* I think there is some sort of spirtual component in humans separate from our physical sense of self. Isn't this why we feel emotion? I mean, emotion isn't purely physical, yet its not purely pschological, so is it determined by some transcendential element intrinsic to the human condition?

*I am undecided about whether there is a 'heaven' or God, and as we already have a very popular thread debating these, I won;t dwell on this point.

*On your point about dinasaurs in the bible, may I again redirect you to the myriad threads on this topic

*What are we doing on earth? Blah, while its fun to ponder on these questions of exitentiality, the bottom line is they can be debated ad nauseum. We could take the whole profound "existance precedes essence" Sartrean approach and say there is essentially no essence to be extracted from life. Then again, we could say that there is essence to be derived from life when we consider the profundity of human emotion and relationships, which ultimately do offer meaning.


*Fate: While I acknowledge there are external factirs beyind our control that will influence the way our life turns out, I'm generally dubious over this whoel idea in divine preordination. Such a notion obliterates free will and suggests "as flies are to wanton boys we are to the gods " (to borrow from Shakespeare).

Ok I'm going to stop now before this morphes into a convoluted vomit of ideas and random thoughts. (though i fear it already has).


Ps- isn't this more 'random philosophical pondering' ratehr than 'News, current affairs and politics'?
 

Captain Gh3y

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ccc123 said:
* I think there is some sort of spirtual component in humans separate from our physical sense of self. Isn't this why we feel emotion? I mean, emotion isn't purely physical, yet its not purely pschological, so is it determined by some transcendential element intrinsic to the human condition?
it's purely physical

deal with it
 

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ccc123 said:
Is it though? I don't know, i was asking! Can all emotions be explained in a physiological/biochemical sense?
Yes. We might not know the exact method of every emotional response, but thats because our understanding of the brain is in its infancy.
 

ccc123

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Serius said:
Yes. We might not know the exact method of every emotional response, but thats because our understanding of the brain is in its infancy.
Ok, I agree, but can the conditions that catalyse these chemical reactions be explained by science? Or is the fact that we feel emotion a consequnce, rather than a cause of these various biochemical processes?
 

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This thread is probably better suited as a topic raised in the "Does God Exist" thread. Especially since some questions have already been answered and discussed there. Having said that. I'll give a brief outline of my responses to these questions.

1. Belief in a soul relies upon a belief in dualism. A completely naturalistic viewpoint rules out the possibility of a soul since everything is only physical matter. The soul, at least in its most common definition refers to something which is non-physical and controls our physical components. Hence the two are not compatible.

2. Depends on your belief about God and the nature of that God. Such a question cannot be simply answered. The "Does God Exist" thread proves that :p

I personally believe there is a place called heaven, but I could not reasonably come to this conclusion if I did not believe in Gods existence.

Your concepts of the nature of heaven seem to be a little different to what I am used to. Lets assume for a second that marriage exists in heaven. If it did, why would you want a divorce? Divorce would imply conflict in a relationship which shouldn't exist in heaven. As SashatheMan brought up though, there is complications in that freewill and sins non possibility in heaven seem to be contradictory. This is definitely worth some thought and investigation.

3. Can't mix science with religion? I am inclined to disagree. The big bang model and creation are perfectly compatible. In fact I would suggest that the big bang implies creation (even if the cause is not God)

I'm slightly confused by your point regarding dinosaurs. How are any specific species of animals mentioned in the Genesis account? Or are you referring to anywhere in the bible? It was my understanding that dinosaurs were extinct before humans came into existence. Please correct me if I am wrong on this though.

4. This again is dependent upon your other beliefs. Naturalism would state that ultimately life has no purpose. A belief in God and purpose relies on what you believe about the nature of that God. I personally am inclined to believe that a God creating the universe we see would have a purpose or at least reason for doing so.

5. Fate and destiny are integrally tied to free will. So if fate exists, then free will does not and vice' versa. This ties in with dualism in question 1. If a person does not have a soul or inability to do only what is an automated physical response then their life is in a sense destined to only be one way based on the conditions they are in - they have no ability to do otherwise.

The only escape I see for free will and some sort of destiny to still exist is through Molinism.

---
Good questions, but I'm thinking they really are better suited to the "Does God Exist?" thread.
 

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urbanfashion-au said:
I just want to debate something and hear what you guys have to say about my theories. Although I am a Catholic, I still have my own opinions I want to express.

Usually catholics are just told what to believe and fed by the church. This not only happens with catholics, but also christians as well.

My first question is. Do humans really have a "soul"? or is it just something people have made up in the sense of fear that there is nothing left for us when we die.
Aiight. I'm atheist, I'll state this now, so my personal belief (well, not so much a belief as a "no evidence thereof" sort of position) is that no, humans do not have what one would usually term a "soul" or "spirit". To be honest I think that it is a function of our consciousness and sentience, and our brains, in the same way you can stimulate the parietal lobe to produce a "religious experience" (or a UFO abduction vision, or whatever, depending on the person).


According to evolution, Our earth was a barren land. No life existed. However, there were these rocks called Stalomites (? ) Anyway , these rocks turned the immense CO2 into Oxygen creating our atmosphere as well as bacteria in the sea.
First of all, they are called stromatolites; and they are sort of the substrate created by extremely primitive cyanobacteria, which inhabited (and still inhabit) shallow seas. Cyanobacteria are photosynthetic, and converted the reducing atmosphere into an oxidizing one. But you're sort of right.

We are born the same way most mammals are born and die. But what really distinguishes us from other animals is that they dont have the intellectual capacity to think further. This is because, as we know evolution took place and their brains did not need to evolve further for survival. Humans have evolved in the brain as well as bone structure. Other animals have evolved in terms of body structure and the ability to adap to environments that are foreign to them.
The idea that animals don't have the capacity to "think further" is inadequate to explain the difference between humans and other animals. The important distinction here is sentience, which is no longer such a big thing as other animals are thought to possess some kind of sentience (chimpanzees, bonobos, cetaceans); also, humans are still evolving both physically and mentally, as other animals do. Other animals don't just evolve in terms of body structure: in the case of predator/prey relationships, one could liken it to an "evolutionary arms race", which requires smarter and smarter brains.

Take the house pest for example. The cockroach. They can live in very bacteria infected areas and still survive. Their main source of food is the dirtiest garbage, yet they have survived through nuclear bombs ( yes they are immune to nuclear radiation ) and millions of years on earth.
Another inadequate comparison. Household cockroaches (there are plenty of species that live exclusively in wold habitats and are obligate herbivores) don't behave the same way we do to bacteria-influenced disease, and it is incorrect that their foodsources are "the dirtiest garbage". It is what their stomachs are adapted for, as omnivores.

Cockroaches are not immune to radiation. They do have a higher resistance to radiation, due to their cell cycles and moulting behaviour, but they are NOT immune: their lethal radiation dose is about 6-10 times higher than that of humans. In fact ALL animals are susceptible to radiation, including bacteria, though certain bacteria need a whole heck of a lot of it to kill it.


We can refer back to Darwins theory of survival of the fittest. As we know humans are only fit in the chain of all the species on earth as they are the "smartest" well most of us anyway are smarter than all animals :)
No. No. Just no.

"Survival of the fittest" refers to individual survival in a species, not of one species over another. We are only the smartest on our frame of reference, and since when did intelligence mean fitness? An exceedingly unintelligent "other animal" can still beat us in the "fitness" stakes - or can you beat a warthog in running away from a lion?


So, were we really afraid that there was nothing after our death? If so, did we create a being called "god?" to rely on and "meet" in our afterlife?
I'm not afraid. But a lot of people are. And yes, I do think that the human species as a whole conjured our ideas of god/gods/supreme beings as a subconscious and visceral way of explaining a world that made less sense the smarter we got.

2. If there is a place called heaven?
Heaven is often depicted as a place where there are flying angels and everything is jolly, white and merry! There is no evidence saying what "heaven" is like. Only that there are gates to enter it? or something like that I have read somewhere

So for all us Christians, We will die one day and our "soul" will ascend to this place called heaven. Our bodies will be either cremated or buried deep under the soil of our Earth and eventually decay or be eaten by bugs or worms Just like any other animal would die.

We get to heaven and realize that we have to be good "people"
This means no one can actually argue with eachother, get into fights. Where would u go if you want a divorce with your old wife? Will you have to live with her for all of eternity? Eternity seems like a very long time if you compare your time on earth doing all the physical things that you can do..
What if all the women are taken and you died solo! Will you remain solo for the rest of your "soul life" on Heaven?

The answer to my question 2 is that the place called "heaven" is a place beyond our intellectual capacity to imagine or discuss. We just have to accept that there is a place called heaven if you are a true believer of God.
Ah, here's the distinction between "life beyond death" and the sudden, very human creation of Heaven: a real place where one's soul lives forever. These are two very different ideas, because the concept of heaven is a product of RELIGION, not (some would call it) our innate "belief". In my cynicism, I believe (especially in the case of the Abrahamic religions) that heaven is a construct to give people an incentive to behave better - you see the same thing in Egyptian mythology as well, with the "weighing of the soul" to determine entry into the afterlife (although considering that the Abrahamic religions borrowed a WHOLE HECK OF A LOT of things from generalised Egyptian mythology, that's not surprising!).

3. Dinosaurs in the bible?
Okay, so we all knew dinosaurs existed way before humans did according to archaeology. We cant mix science with religion. ie. the big bang theory and the creation theory. But what we cant fool ourselves is history!
Yes dinosaurs existed millions of years ago. What killed them? No one knows..
But the main thing is that there is no mention of dinosaurs when god created all these animals on earth. Why is this so? Because Jesus came a lot longer after the first archaeologists found the remains of bones of dinosaurs.
On the first day he did this the next day he did this. Gods "day" is relatively long though..
The Bible is an utterly inaccurate record of history, contrary to popular theory. The reason that the dinosaurs (and other prehistoric animals) are absent from the Bible is that the very HUMAN authors didn't know they existed. Just like they didn't know that the Earth was round and is about 5 billion years old, the fish came long before the birds (and not to even MENTION Jesus - he's pretty recent in the "timeline" of the Bible!), etc.

Also, palaentologists did up fossils. Archaeologists dig up human civilisations.

4. What are we doing on earth?
Have you ever thought, the day you were born, your purpose in life on earth. Why were you born to the family you are with now?
Here we must think of our good old probability and chance. Is our existance of our planet earth by pure fluke? If so we are also probably a fluke in this wide universe.
Exactamundo. Why SHOULD there be a reason why we're here, in our arrogance? We're here because we are, and because our ancestors were here, and because 4-odd billion years ago cyanobacteria started photosynthesising. Why does there need to be a reason? The existence of the Earth itself is not "by chance" or "by design" - it's here because the second generation star that was here previously blew up, and the spewed out gas condensed into our sun and our planets. We're here because that happened, and it's happened elsewhere and it's STILL happening.

5. Fate
Fate is a broad topic to cover but i will try to keep it short.
Fate is something many people believe in and destiny. You may think, it exists or doesnt exist but just have a read to what I have to say.

Fate is like destiny. You are destined to do a particular thing or be somebody when you are "older"

Now think that you are destined to do something right after reading this.
You can scratch your head, get a cup of water, do whatever. That is all up to you. It is also destiny.
You were destined to scratch your head right at 1:05: 30seconds.
If these little random events can be classified into fate. Fate is totally random.
I think fate is totally random because we make our own destiny by every little action we take.
Even studying 5 minutes more before your sleep could heavily effect your marks and thus you could be making 500$ more a week because of that.
However, say you were lazy and you didnt study and you came out with a degree from uni with all passes. Would that have been your "fate" to be poorer than Joe next door?
There is no such thing as fate. Everything in life is a choice, either ours or somebody else's, or events that cannot be chosen: not fate. It was that person's choice to study 5 minutes less and thus be poorer than Joe, not fate.

I think fate is again a construct of our brains, as an inability to accept the consequences of our actions. We just blame it on fate, or God (i.e. "God's plan" and other ridiculous platitudes).

Also another thing to think about is. What about all the poor people on earth. What did they do so wrong to be born in a poor environment? I am talking about real poor people in Africa!
Did god just let them suffer? Does he not care about the poor and dying? The bible always talks about poor and dying. Why cannot god do anything physical to change something on earth?
Maybe make it so theres water and available soil for farming.
We always pray in churches to let the aussie farmers have water so that we can get food to our supermarkets for our own consumption.
Ok so we've prayed and we got rain? No, that is totally out of Gods control.
What defines his control? What can the being "god" do physically ? Here your probably thinking, god does not intervene with human activity but just oversees us as humans and judges us.
But is that a good enough reason from a realistic point of view to let those starve to death. Many children die in Africa everyday because they cannot get a sip of water. It is improving through donations though the rich countries stay rich driving 4WD supercharged Cars consuming a tonne of fuel whilst the poor only get the luxury of a meal a day or less. This inequality is something I hope "god" did not wish for. But it is mainly the geographics of our earth that has made them poor and the lack of resources.
This is why when you look on various sites on eBay or anywhere. It is always the nigerians or africans trying to scam your "hard" earned money . We complain when we do actually get scammed by them and call them bad names. But why do they do that? They also need money. Probably for the most basic needs of survival, food and clothing. While we're bitching about losing 100$, you probably would've fed 100 children with that.

I think the whole notion of donation is a lot more crucial than we think. So next time you can donate to the poor, please do so :)
You will only truely realize the value of life when you are put in their shoes though.
I'm trying and failing to follow your train of thought here, but the simple answer to your questions/complaints/musings about the poor and why God hasn't done anything if he's such a magnanimous God, is because there is no God; or, in the extremely unlikely case that there is, that such a supreme being wouldn't much care for the insignificances of a poor child in Africa when it's got the whole universe to worry about.

To summarise, humanity has a large inferiority complex, and an extremely large ego, for no real reason whatsoever.


/incoherent
 
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My first question is. Do humans really have a "soul"? or is it just something people have made up in the sense of fear that there is nothing left for us when we die.
The soul probably comes from the same sort of logic that led us to cartesian theories of consciousness. I believe that all we have is the physical? Why? Because if you shut down certain parts of the brain, different parts of that persons persona/essence will cease to function. If there is a soul, it is essentially nothingness because once we get rid of everything we need a brain to do, we are nothing.

We are born the same way most mammals are born and die. But what really distinguishes us from other animals is that they dont have the intellectual capacity to think further. This is because, as we know evolution took place and their brains did not need to evolve further for survival. Humans have evolved in the brain as well as bone structure. Other animals have evolved in terms of body structure and the ability to adap to environments that are foreign to them.
Take the house pest for example. The cockroach. They can live in very bacteria infected areas and still survive. Their main source of food is the dirtiest garbage, yet they have survived through nuclear bombs ( yes they are immune to nuclear radiation ) and millions of years on earth.
We can refer back to Darwins theory of survival of the fittest. As we know humans are only fit in the chain of all the species on earth as they are the "smartest" well most of us anyway are smarter than all animals
Well I think I can see where you're going with this and I'd just tack on our planet has existed for billions of years, we've only really occupied 200,000 years of that as homo sapiens... before that there were dinosaurs which lasted hundreds of millions of years - Yet we are Gods special species?

2. If there is a place called heaven?
I'd really like to believe so but there's just no evidence.

. Where would u go if you want a divorce with your old wife? Will you have to live with her for all of eternity? Eternity seems like a very long time if you compare your time on earth doing all the physical things that you can do..
For the most part even though eternity is a long time, I have no real issue with this. I mean, day to day, we busy ourselves doing kinda the same old remedial tasks and it doesn't bother us... we don't even have that much of a memory, for the most part it's almost as if we're reincarnated into a different person every chunk of years. So I don't see eternity being a problem.

4. What are we doing on earth?
Have you ever thought, the day you were born, your purpose in life on earth. Why were you born to the family you are with now?
Here we must think of our good old probability and chance. Is our existance of our planet earth by pure fluke? If so we are also probably a fluke in this wide universe.
There's big philosophical answers, but for the most part I think they're bullshit. Day by day we live our lives with little tiny goals, sometimes things fall into place. i.e. I'd say most people live to eat/sleep/be with people/work.

I don't think christians have any better answers either.

cbf now.
 

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Captain Gh3y and Kwayera lead sad, meaningless existences where their answers to the meaning of life come from a textbook written by others. vbmenu_register("postmenu_3329168", true);
 

Kwayera

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Whereas TacoTerrorist leads a sad, meaningless existence puncuated by worship of straw men illustrated in possibly the greatest story, fictional, ever told.
 

Kwayera

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Well they're quite obvious in that regard. Feel free to correct me.
 

TacoTerrorist

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^ Okay. I do not follow any particular religion, but I am not an atheist, and I am not 'anti-science' either.
 

Kwayera

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So you believe in some "higher being" that either has had something to do with our "creation" and/or actively involves themselves in our daily lives. Yes/no?
 
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pretty sure he's a troll.

Never have understood what the deeper meaning believers talk about truly is, as far as I can tell they're just as confused as us. I mean the only thing I think they can say is 'to follow my lord ^___~'...
 

TacoTerrorist

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^ Huh?

Kwayera, I just find it hard to believe that the universe was created through a series of highly random physical processes. Anyone who believes that some atoms (where from?) had sex and exploded to create the universe is just...ugh. How can anyone think that the huge complexities of the universe came about by chance? The only solution in my mind is the influence of those processes by some 'higher being'.
 

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TacoTerrorist said:
^ Huh?

Kwayera, I just find it hard to believe that the universe was created through a series of highly random physical processes. Anyone who believes that some atoms (where from?) had sex and exploded to create the universe is just...ugh. How can anyone think that the huge complexities of the universe came about by chance? The only solution in my mind is the influence of those processes by some 'higher being'.
Agreed.
Though atoms having sex??:devil:
 

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