Another reason why god doesn't exist (3 Viewers)

[jdevlin]

Now, There are a million things I'd like to reply to here...

But just a couple for now...

Firstly for "catholic man" Robbie... I'm a Christian, denominations aside... we both know there are deep seeded problems with all the denominations. I attend an Anglican Church, and I'm not oblivious to it's faults. But neither am I oblivious to glaring theological problems with Catholicism. So I ask about Indulgences, praying to Saints and not neccessarily Jesus, Purgatory and two other little things. Firstly, do you call yourself a Christian or a Catholic. Secondly why Catholicism?

Ok my second point is this... the one thing that is missing from this debate is the same thing that is missing from a lot of Christian debates. It's missing from Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion" and Christopher Hitchens book (I can't remember the title for the life of me) something like why God doens't exist.

It's the Human Condition... called Sin...
It's the thing that's ruined this world... the thing that tears families apart, causes men to rape women, causes homosexuality (yes a provocative statement, but ask me WHY... it's not an uniformed, unscientific statement by a long shot), causes death, war, theft, fraud, and every other nasty thing in this word...
not religion, not the actions of the few... but the selfish actions of every single person on this planet...

Priests commit paedophilic acts because they are sinful... it is the most simple and definate answer to the question at hand...

For Non-Christians or non-believers, think of it as the common quote "we're all human" and we all stuff up majorly... I know of no-one who has ever been perfectly Good except Jesus himself...

There are probably just as many paedophiles outside the church as there are inside it... in fact more because there's more people outside the church then in it (and I say Church as the WHOLE Christian Church)...

This doesn't justify it, and isn't an attempt to (because you can't justify it, not now, not at Judgement Day,not ever)... it just explains why it happens (along with everything else that sucks in this world or ruins lives...

AND WHY ON EARTH IS THIS IN LIGHT AND OFFBEAT NEWS? Geh?

Smile everyone, be HAPPY!!!

 

[katie_tully]

causes homosexuality (yes a provocative statement, but ask me WHY... it's not an uniformed, unscientific statement by a long shot

Why.

 

[Tulipa]

There are probably just as many paedophiles outside the church as there are inside it... in fact more because there's more people outside the church then in it (and I say Church as the WHOLE Christian Church)...

Sure but they're not in positions of power over children. Priests are seen as the biggest authority to a lot of little kids, on par with parents. They exploit this and as such it's a bigger problem than just a pedophile trying to pick kids up off the internet who isn't in such an opportunistic position.

Also, are you also saying that sin exists and as such this is always going to happen so don't bother trying to do anything?

 

[jdevlin]

Sure but they're not in positions of power over children. Priests are seen as the biggest authority to a lot of little kids, on par with parents. They exploit this and as such it's a bigger problem than just a pedophile trying to pick kids up off the internet who isn't in such an opportunistic position.

I know... but the point being that Sin is everywhere

Also, are you also saying that sin exists and as such this is always going to happen so don't bother trying to do anything?

You said "also, are you also"... tis a funny turn of expression, i like it...

No no not at all what I'm saying... By far no... I'm saying that Sin is the problem, the source if you like... In my experience the only way to combat the problem REALLY is to combat the source... So the problem being, the source being sin, we should be taking Sin head on... not the Catholic Church...
Rather then pointing the finger at the Priests and the Church you put in place more measures in place to make sure it doesn't happen, you remove the temptation.

Billy Graham never allowed himself to be alone with a woman, other then his wife... If he ever found himself alone with a woman he would apoligse and go and find someone, if he couldn't find someone he'd either ask to move to a more public place or leave...
See Billy Graham knew he was sinful, so he combatted the sin by eliminating its temptation.

Make sense?

Also katie, just give me a minute, There's a bit to write...

 

[Tulipa]

I know... but the point being that Sin is everywhere

Okay. Straight off the bat I'm iffy about you using such a religious term as "Sin" because it's difficult to define it without being subjective.

No no not at all what I'm saying... By far no... I'm saying that Sin is the problem, the source if you like... In my experience the only way to combat the problem REALLY is to combat the source... So the problem being, the source being sin, we should be taking Sin head on... not the Catholic Church...

That is being done though. Take so-called "sin" on wherever it is. If it's in the Catholic Church then they need to answer to it because that's where it's occuring, it doesn't matter that everyone sins, it matters that we know where it is and can make measures to work against it. How else would you propose it happen?

Also, not all people want to ignore "sin" because they don't see it as such

Rather then pointing the finger at the Priests and the Church you put in place more measures in place to make sure it doesn't happen, you remove the temptation.

Again, how do you propose to do that? Brainwash everyone into believing this? You're spouting Christian ideals here and while that might be fine for you, some of your ideas are a little too archaic.

 

[robbie1]

Firstly for "catholic man" Robbie... I'm a Christian, denominations aside... we both know there are deep seeded problems with all the denominations. I attend an Anglican Church, and I'm not oblivious to it's faults. But neither am I oblivious to glaring theological problems with Catholicism. So I ask about Indulgences, praying to Saints and not neccessarily Jesus, Purgatory and two other little things. Firstly, do you call yourself a Christian or a Catholic. Secondly why Catholicism?

I call myself a Catholic - or a Catholic Christian.

Lets tackle one issue at a time....Purgatory first.

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

There are more.....but hopefully that is enough.

Just ask yourself.....are you perfect.....no you're not.....do you sin?.....yes.....what happens to this part of you when you die.....Jesus takes it away through purification.

 

[jdevlin]

Why.

This cannot be proved either way... but I have made an informed decision, and yes I do have a large number of homosexual friends who match this description.

Now I'm not going to quote sources because most of the medical and psychological journals and reports I've read are confidential or hidden away in the back of our large, ungainly study, and i'll try and dig them out for you, but for now I'll lay out the groundwork... and if you wish you can do your own research into the topic. My father is a GP and my mother a counsellor with a Masters in Gestalt Psychotherapy, and both of them have given me the reading material... so I'm not making up sources, I just don't have time to dig them out right now (you know, little thing called trials)

Firstly, There is no common physical element linking homosexuals, except that of a predilection for sexual urges towards the same sex. While there is genetic information that suggests this, it is tenuous at best.

Secondly, It is well documented that homosexuality is more a psychological condition then physical...

Now before I go any further with this I'll take a little side road. It does sound aweful I know (what I said above), but I don't think that homosexuality is a disease at all... It's an aweful thing to happen, but it usually can't be avoided. And from my homosexual friends I know that it doesn't feel like it at all, it just feels like you were made that way... but let me go on.

One of the key traits shared by homosexuals is to do with parents or parental figures. That is abuse or lack of attention. It is true, homosexuality seems to (according to studies) eminate from either a lack of attention or abuse. in terms of Lack of attention - this usually is the case with males, the father figure (or mother figure in the case of Lesbians) was absent large amounts of the time during their growing up... This is the case with quite a few of my friends. In terms of abuse, this can come from anyone in many forms... physical, sexual or psychological abuse... and manifests itself again in homosexuality.
Now obviously not all people who are abused or don't receive enough attention from their parents turn out gay. Now my guess for this would be, that as some people are genetically pre-disposed to depression and anxiety, some would be more fragile when taking abuse or fragile from lack of attention and more easily are ummm, right word, right word... unwillingly changed.

In terms of sin... abuse OBVIOUSLY being a sin... In terms of Lack of attention, this is more a greed thing, and can come from many levels.
I see sin as a disease... It passes on from generation to generation and from person to person. One persons greed at the top of a company means that someone at the bottom loses their job, so they go out and get drunk and beat up on their wives... who in turn take it out on the children, who in turn become violent, struggle at school, get in to a dead end jobs, loose it because they can't stay sober, beat up on their wives... the circle continues.

Do you see what I'm getting at? Is that clear to you?

 

[jdevlin]

Okay. Straight off the bat I'm iffy about you using such a religious term as "Sin" because it's difficult to define it without being subjective.



That is being done though. Take so-called "sin" on wherever it is. If it's in the Catholic Church then they need to answer to it because that's where it's occuring, it doesn't matter that everyone sins, it matters that we know where it is and can make measures to work against it. How else would you propose it happen?

Also, not all people want to ignore "sin" because they don't see it as such



Again, how do you propose to do that? Brainwash everyone into believing this? You're spouting Christian ideals here and while that might be fine for you, some of your ideas are a little too archaic.

Sin is not really a subjective term... If you understand even a little about the bible, then sin is very much one thing. Sin is essentially turning away from God... doing what he's told you NOT to do... immortalised in the 10 commandments... and even more so the two most important commandments... Jesus was asked which the most important commandments were... he told them Love the Lord your God, and love your Neighbour... because that essentially covers EVERYTHING... (see Mark 12:28 for an example)

Yes they do need to answer for it, and believe me they WILL answer for it. At Judgement day we will all be judged... those with Christ will be seen as clean, and those without will have all their sins revealed... and will spend Eternity in seperation from love and everything Good in hell.
For now, the law prohibits it, and without the Catholic Church doing something about the way it functions, I don't think any more can be done other then what the law says.

In my Church, no matter what, you cannot be alone with someone under the age of 18 if you are leader, without another person present... and that person should be a leader. There are just little things like that. There are no known cases of child-abuse in our church, but the church has run like that for almost a hundred years... so it would be extremely difficult for someone to do something like that... but once again, I can't read everyones mind who's ever been there so I can't tell you.

I'm sorry, apart from prevention, I don't think there's any way to stop it. I don't think we should ignore sin at all... I despise it because it's what takes me further from the one who loves me most.

What do you mean by Archaic? I'm not too sure...

 

[Tulipa]

You're basing all of this on people being religious or agreeing to acquiesce to religious ideals.

What about people who reject that?

 

[jdevlin]

I call myself a Catholic - or a Catholic Christian.

Lets tackle one issue at a time....Purgatory first.

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

There are more.....but hopefully that is enough.

Just ask yourself.....are you perfect.....no you're not.....do you sin?.....yes.....what happens to this part of you when you die.....Jesus takes it away through purification.

Ok... I see you're well versed...
But I have a but... and it's a BIG but...
To me, coming from an educated English background, and one who was a sceptic and came to faith through reason... these verses seem a little out of context. By this I mean Historically and within the passages in the Bible itself.
Of course I'm not God so I can't tell you you're wrong... but I have a couple of further questions.
Why, If everything else Jesus says, is outlined very specifically, like how to get to heaven and such... is this only from slight reference... the bible can get you in to trouble if you take it out of context (e.g. Wives submit to your husbands) and when taken out of context verses meanings can change...

For Instance... the Matthew 5:26 verse is talking about Murder... read 21 to 26, particularly in a translation like the NIV or the ESV and you'll find that the verse is a little different in terms of contextualisation and structuralisation. I don't think it's talking about an otherworldy prison... it's talking about prison as hell... not paying for your sins essentially meaning not bei.ng perfect or not following Christ. It's the sermon on the Mount.

I'm not doubting your theology... just Christian to Christian making sure you check your sources... and your source is reliable, so checking you read the source properly...

I shall add you to my prayers, brother in Christ

 

[katie_tully]

I am lost for words.

 

[jdevlin]

You're basing all of this on people being religious or agreeing to acquiesce to religious ideals.

What about people who reject that?

Ok... ummm...

I said that they should be judged by the law.... I did lay down what I think is the ONLY way to stop them... these are not "religous" solutions...

And, sorry, but I do not consider myself religous by a long shot... I'm a Christian... religion is a negative term, with nasty implications... I mean i can't really tell you to, but don't think any of this is "religous" talk, it is Christian talk... and that is very different.
So if you could, please refer to my theology as "christian"... but it's a request to someone I don't know, so please don't feel obligated.

I don't think people should have to acquiesce to religious ideals... but we are talking about the same thing here right? Priest... Catholic Christian priests... who I would hope believe in Christs salvation for all...

Like I said... for people who reject CHRISTIAN ideals... the law must suffice... other then changing the law, then you can't really do anything I'm afraid... apart from turning in to some sort of vigilante, which is never good for anyone...

 

[jdevlin]

I am lost for words.

as in?

 

[Tulipa]

Ok... ummm...

I said that they should be judged by the law.... I did lay down what I think is the ONLY way to stop them... these are not "religous" solutions...

Yes but you're speaking about this in "Christian" terms [religion is not a derogatory term but whatever floats your boat].

I don't think people should have to acquiesce to religious ideals... but we are talking about the same thing here right? Priest... Catholic Christian priests... who I would hope believe in Christs salvation for all...

At the same time though, how could they profess to be Christian if they do commit such acts? They're completely rejecting their faith by doing this. Some of them even use confession as a way to "absolve" themselves. Then do it all over again. I'm thinking the law is a better way and really the only way. Also, while the law can be seen to be based on Christian morals, it's more common sense morals and for that I think it works well to assess situations like this.

Like I said... for people who reject CHRISTIAN ideals... the law must suffice... other then changing the law, then you can't really do anything I'm afraid... apart from turning in to some sort of vigilante, which is never good for anyone...

Yes, then the Catholic priests should be judged by the law. Religion gets them absolved through confession. Just because they belong to a religion doesn't mean they get to avoid that.

 

[katie_tully]

As in, I really do not know what to say in response to that.

 

[jdevlin]

Yes but you're speaking about this in "Christian" terms.

At the same time though, how could they profess to be Christian if they do commit such acts? They're completely rejecting their faith by doing this. Some of them even use confession as a way to "absolve" themselves. Then do it all over again. I'm thinking the law is a better way and really the only way. Also, while the law can be seen to be based on Christian morals, it's more common sense morals and for that I think it works well to assess situations like this.

Yes, then the Catholic priests should be judged by the law. Religion gets them absolved through confession. Just because they belong to a religion doesn't mean they get to avoid that.

Why shouldn't i speak about it in Christian terms... is it not an issue that relates to the Christian Church?
I want to ask you a question... you say "how could they profess to be Christian if they do commit such acts?"... do you think Christianity is about Good works to be saved? because if so I'll have to explain something to you... but not now

They're not rejecting their faith... they're sinning - it's an aweful sin - but it's sin nonetheless... Sin is turning your back on God... so in a way they are turning their back on God, not faith... that doesn't mean they're no longer saved, but they aren't absolved either. Christians are held accountable to the law of the Earth. Jesus tells us too in the Gospels.

I agree with you... on Earth the only way to do anything about it is the law... you keep coming back saying the same things and I give you the same answer... In this world and life, we shall deal with them through the law of the land... in the next, they will be judged according to whether they are saved or not, not whether they've raped a child or not...
You have to understand that a lot of the "common sense" morals you talk about would probably come directly out of the Bible... I'm serious...

No Confession does not absolve them... even in a Christian sense... the only way to "absolve" onself is to commit to Christ... and even that doesn't "absolve" you of your earthly sins... If they get out of it because they are involved in the Church, well then they aren't following the teaching of the Bible or taking those teachings out of context...

 

[Tulipa]

You have to understand that a lot of the "common sense" morals you talk about would probably come directly out of the Bible... I'm serious...

I know, because Judeo-Christian morals are common sense things that came out of creating a civilized society that uses rules to restrict chaos. I'm serious.

No Confession does not absolve them... even in a Christian sense... the only way to "absolve" onself is to commit to Christ... and even that doesn't "absolve" you of your earthly sins... If they get out of it because they are involved in the Church, well then they aren't following the teaching of the Bible or taking those teachings out of context...

I can't really talk about Christianity and the Bible anymore. It's just doesn't work for me because it sort of makes me throw up a little in my mouth.

 

[jiggymcfizzle]

Hey if anyone's fucking my kids, it's going to be me.

AHAHAHA! Quote of the century. That's going to be at the end of all my posts if thats ok with u

And just a quick question for the christians here. Is the common belief that sin is a result of temptations of Satan, or is it more to do with being given a choice and ultimately the souls worthy of heaven are sorted from those who are unworthy? Because I choose to believe the latter but it doesn't seem to be the prevailing idea among the christians I've talked or listened to over the years. If you blame the devil for temptations and sin I see that as passing the buck - blaming someone else for your faults. Basically I'm asking, what's the true or more correct christian belief in this? A lot of this info has come from church group visits to our school, and those people don't even accept the theory of evolution.

 

[Enteebee]

To me, coming from an educated English background, and one who was a sceptic and came to faith through reason... these verses seem a little out of context. By this I mean Historically and within the passages in the Bible itself.
Of course I'm not God so I can't tell you you're wrong... but I have a couple of further questions.

I wonder if now you can see further evidence that perhaps the bible isn't so clear?

 

[Ennaybur]

One of the key traits shared by homosexuals is to do with parents or parental figures. That is abuse or lack of attention. It is true, homosexuality seems to (according to studies) eminate from either a lack of attention or abuse. in terms of Lack of attention - this usually is the case with males, the father figure (or mother figure in the case of Lesbians) was absent large amounts of the time during their growing up... This is the case with quite a few of my friends.

this is bullshit.

out of all my gay friends only one has an absent father. out of all my friends who've had abusive/absent parents, one is gay.