Are people smugglers doing good? (1 Viewer)

[incentivation]

John Howard's famous words bear relevance to this debate.

The 'moral' foundation of the quest for a better life might be pertinent in determining refugee status, and probably should be. However. it should not supersede the sovereign right of controlling the flow of persons into the governed country.

People smugglers are not acting as chariots working towards providing these people better lives. It is a profitable enterprise. No more, no less. There is no reinjection of capital to improve the services of the enterprise. Just the continued exploitation of those who are seeking to leave their country.

 

[Iron]

Who are you to say that the producers of the material products I use dont love me as a person? They wouldntve gotten as far as the factory floor if they didnt show considerable trust and respect in the dignity of their fellow man along the way. You say we only need love as children, but as adults we can make it alone. Ha I say. Ha to the very fabric of your being. Your ideal society is one that is totally without morality, totally without love for the individual. You would sacrifice anyone but yourself on the altar of profit, so blinded are you to goodness and truth.
For you to worship that man-made system, that beast, as a God (an 'invisible' one btw!) is bizarre. Youre the machine man with a machine heart.

 

[Graney]

People smugglers aren't good, but the ends they achieve are.

Who are you to say that the producers of the material products I use dont love me as a person? They wouldntve gotten as far as the factory floor if they didnt show considerable trust and respect in the dignity of their fellow man along the way.

You said, as soon as you involve the profit motive, morality goes out the window. I agree.

Now you're flip-flopping to try to say the car company loves you?

 

[Iron]

Love thy neighbour is a commandment, not a fact. I have no doubt that I am not universally loved by everyone I meet or who impacts my life in any trivial way. But it's systems like yours that seek to erode the solid foundations of love with the sand of impersonal profit that cause the whole bloody building to eventually collapse in on itself. The ideals you follow have proved that they arent self-sustaining, that they force people further apart instead of bringing them together, that they doom a people, its institutions and environment to corruption and death if they are followed in the absolutist way you insist on

 

[Graney]

People smugglers are not acting as chariots working towards providing these people better lives. It is a profitable enterprise. No more, no less. There is no reinjection of capital to improve the services of the enterprise. Just the continued exploitation of those who are seeking to leave their country.

You can't say that.

They would be expected to reinject capital and expand their business, providing more services to increase the number of people travelling, so long as supply is less than demand.

It costs them money to lose boats and staff, so they'd be expected to invest in anything that improves reliable, safe, discrete operations.

 

[incentivation]

It is an entirely unsatisfactory argument for two reasons.

First, it assumes that national sovereignty is just, and that if it is just, it should take precedent over the "quest for a better life" (which in many cases is a euphemism for the quest not to be murdered).

What gives a nation sovereignty? The answer is force, the ability to use weapons and guns to enforce it. Even countries with no defence forces only have "sovereignty" because bigger, more powerful nations will defend their interests.

Look at Iraq, it was sovereign. But when a more powerful force comes along and blows shit up, suddenly its leaders become criminal and a new group of people become the rightful sovereign masters. Sovereignty is nothing more than a way of legitimizing the use of force against people.

Secondly, it assumes that just because sovereignty gives us the right to do something, that we should exercise that right. Even if you accept that we have the right to stop people entering Australia, that does not mean we should use it.

Sovereignty may be a source of legitimising force. It is more though. The acceptance of that sovereignty by its citizens maintains any existing legitimacy.

The quest for the maintenance of the state is achieved through coercion. If that state is unable to maintain its position through whatever means necessary, then it loses the right to the land over which it commands (thus the era of imperialism).

Whether sovereignty is just, relies solely on what the citizens of the state accept. Acceptance often derives legitimacy, save for circumstances where actual military force governs society. However those circumstances are minimal, and can be overturned in time.

You questioned moral absolutes in another thread. Surely you are making a presumption of moral absolutism in these circumstances; that sovereignty is inherently unjust due to its coercive nature.

That is another debate though.

We do have sovereignty. It does exist. In regards to the second assumption you cited, I see no reason why we shouldn't exercise our right to that power. We should be selective about who is able to claim refugee status. We cannot control the birth of undesirables in our country, but we can restrict the access of undesirables from others.

 

[Iron]

The prosperity is debatable, if taken as a whole, but yes I agree that it has generally been a destructive thing.

Abandoning religion? Hell, look at how many converts you guys got. Practically stormed every western democracy, every major political leader, even the ones apparently not on the side of capital. History will record it as one of the most religious times to have ever occured. All hail the invisible creature that makes everything good and prosperious! We are not worthy of your greatness oh He who knows all and provides well for those who praise your glory and praise your name.

My major problem is how neo-liberalism has practically fed itself on the good values of society; sucked the blood dry. We are only now confronted with the problem - the destruction and despair - the damage through the GFC and the emptiness spread by ignoring the parable of the rich fool, by attempting to find meaning through weath rather than people
To grow yourselves on the notion that 'greed is good' - that society doesnt need values, no fairness or love for one another, but only an absolute concern with your own prosperity! From this all other good flows! you say. What a bunch of crap. Rot in jail, in my own opinion.

 

[allieoop11]

They are exploiting desperate people. They are completely unjust.

 

[Cookie182]

What I am saying is that "love your neighbor" is not a moral absolute. Most people love their family and friends, but not necessarily everyone else in the world, who may be described as their neighbors. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

What is important is not that we love everyone, merely that don't hurt anyone and allow them to pursue their own good in their own way.

And then Jesus said:

[27] "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, [28] bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. [29] If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. [30] Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. [31] Do to others as you would have them do to you.

[32] "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. [33] And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. [34] And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. [35] But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. [36] Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful." (Luke 6:27-36)

For Zimmerman8k, "If you love only those who love you, what reward is that? Even scoundrels do that much. If you are friendly only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even the heathen do that. But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:43-48)